Japan F-18 Super Super Hornet?

[Scorpion82]

But then this AESA will still be a generation or two behind?

Says whom? It will be less mature that for sure, doesn't mean it's generations behint.

 

[swerve]

The Typhoon is operational in only a few roles. It is not operational in an anti-shipping role and to the best of my knowledge has not had any anti-ship missile integrated.

A full range of air to ground weapons and capabilities remains to be integrated with the aircraft. But no doubt others can give a more accurate appraisal of this situation.

Regards,

AD

Indeed. But Japan's newest fighter aircraft are tasked with anti-shipping strike, & will continue to be so after any new type enters service. Japan only uses its own missiles & guided bomsb in this role (from fighters: the JMSDF has Harpoon on its P-3s, IIRC), & they would need to be integrated on any new type, including the F-18E.

Most of the weapons that are integrated on F-18E, & said to be relevant, are not: Japan does not operate them. It uses its own equivalents. Those that Japan does have, such as JDAM, should be integrated in time. Typhoon users already have it.

 

[Twinblade]

why not more f-15's ? they have operated it for almost 3 decades, they already have a logistics chain and ample trained crews. Its better strike fighter than SH now, better a2a, bigger AESA radar, although comes with a larger RCS, but other than J-20 china has nothing to match up its capability.

 

[Scorpion82]

@Twinblade,
the F-15C as operated by the JASDF is an entirely different beast in comparison to the F-15s built now. There wouldn't be much commonality at all and with currently no other customers to opt for an Silent Eagle like variant, Japan would once again end up with an isle solution. An F-15K/SG/SA like variant would be more viable, but still suffer from the same problem of very limited commonality with the F-15C. I don't think that the JASDF is really interested in a two-seater anyway, spare some training aircraft.

 

[MrConservative]

Who do you reckon is going to be able to get the production plants ticking over around Komaki employing skilled Japanese production workers and tech-heads the fastest with the least fuss and bother? Who has the greater long standing commercial and political relationship out of the players involved in a nation which commercial and political relationships are central? Who is the proven operator in country and a risk adverse country at that? Who has a product that can be a suitable replacement for the venerable F-4? In the wider picture - How will the relationship between the US & Japan be following a decsion by the GOJ to support the move of the base at Futema (which the USG is only grudingly accepting) and a major Defence contract going to a non US manufacturer? Or will Quid Pro Quo as usual carry the day in that respect between Japan and the US - shift Futenma - buy Shornet? Was the Typhoon bid always the patsy in an attempt to ginger negotiations between Lockheed and Boeing by the Japanese Defence Ministry?

As somebody who lives under the Komaki final approach in suburban Nagoya, I'm picking the Shornet built in Komaki guys. I maybe proven wrong but if I were a betting man ......

Cheers MrC

 

[Twinblade]

@Twinblade,
the F-15C as operated by the JASDF is an entirely different beast in comparison to the F-15s built now. There wouldn't be much commonality at all and with currently no other customers to opt for an Silent Eagle like variant, Japan would once again end up with an isle solution. An F-15K/SG/SA like variant would be more viable, but still suffer from the same problem of very limited commonality with the F-15C. I don't think that the JASDF is really interested in a two-seater anyway, spare some training aircraft.

If the commonality factor doesn't stand for different variants of f-15, would there be much commonality with SH ? Even the pilots would need minimum training to shift to newer f-15's than f-18's if they decide to scrap some of the older birds. f-15 trumps the SH in a lot of the parameters of raw performance, and IMO SH offers very few advantages over f 15.

 

[Scorpion82]

The switching from the existing F-15 to a new variant would certainly be easier than introducing an all new type, by as aforementioned the commonality is limited. The F-15 certainly has its merits, but it is more expensive to procure and operate and with the USN being permanently present with a carrier battle group there would be some synergies between the JASDF and USN by operating F/A-18E/F. Given the JASDFs obvious emphasis on air-to-air the F-15 could be a better choice, but bear in mind that supportability is crucial and the F-15 may run out of production very soon and while the number of customers has increased over the years, the number of operational F-15s itself is declining permanently.

 

[Twinblade]

The switching from the existing F-15 to a new variant would certainly be easier than introducing an all new type, by as aforementioned the commonality is limited. The F-15 certainly has its merits, but it is more expensive to procure and operate and with the USN being permanently present with a carrier battle group there would be some synergies between the JASDF and USN by operating F/A-18E/F. Given the JASDFs obvious emphasis on air-to-air the F-15 could be a better choice, but bear in mind that supportability is crucial and the F-15 may run out of production very soon and while the number of customers has increased over the years, the number of operational F-15s itself is declining permanently.

That didn't deter Korea and Singapore. AFAIK USAF is going to operate f 15 e's till 2035, so are Korea and SG. Just look at the countries still operating f-4's and f-5's, USAF retired them almost a couple of decades back and these birds are still flying. If Australia can choose SH as a stop gap till f-35 comes online just because it had commonality with their F/A-18s, the Japanese can surely do so with f-15's.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Says whom? It will be less mature that for sure, doesn't mean it's generations behint.

I attended a BAE briefing on Typhoon in 2009 where they spoke about AESA in play 2010....

They won't necessarily be a generation behind, but the field and development cycle obviously takes a hit

 

[gf0012-aust]

That didn't deter Korea and Singapore. AFAIK USAF is going to operate f 15 e's till 2035, so are Korea and SG. Just look at the countries still operating f-4's and f-5's, USAF retired them almost a couple of decades back and these birds are still flying. If Australia can choose SH as a stop gap till f-35 comes online just because it had commonality with their F/A-18s, the Japanese can surely do so with f-15's.

The logistics and transition line for Japan is far easier with Super Hornet than with Typhoon.

There's a tendency for people just to consider platforms and ignore the training, transition and logistics tails.

As they are usually over half the sustainment cost for the lifetime of a platforms service cycle, they have a considerable impact.

its not just about platforms, but unfort thats what some of the debates get dumbed down to....

 

[Twinblade]

The logistics and transition line for Japan is far easier with Super Hornet than with Typhoon.

There's a tendency for people just to consider platforms and ignore the training, transition and logistics tails.

As they are usually over half the sustainment cost for the lifetime of a platforms service cycle, they have a considerable impact.

its not just about platforms, but unfort thats what some of the debates get dumbed down to....

Ok GF, transitioning to typhoon is a big no no, SH can move in with lesser effort, but can you explain to me why SH suits japan better then newer F-15, or in the words of a newbie, what shortcomings do the japanese find with newer f-15's that they may be interested in other birds to complement their existing f-15 fleet ?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Ok GF, transitioning to typhoon is a big no no, SH can move in with lesser effort, but can you explain to me why SH suits japan better then newer F-15, or in the words of a newbie, what shortcomings do the japanese find with newer f-15's that they may be interested in other birds to complement their existing f-15 fleet ?

Nope not saying that its a no-no, just saying that if normal assessment and consideration is in play, then they are looking at more than just the capability of the individual platform. training and sustaining costs as much throughout the life of that platform, if you can lower the tail end, then it becomes attractive.

I can see the advantages of having Shornets especially if they harness up some as Growlers - that means that they act as additional enablers for their AWACS

I'm not sure its an argument about whether the F15's are "lacking" as both aircraft undertake discretely dissimilar missions.

Mixing the fleet offers redundancy, mixing the fleet but maintaining some commonality in the support and training tail lessons the pain.

I am a fan of the Typhoon, and not that long ago it wasn't too hard to get me to say that I'd prefer Typhoon over the SHornets, but the reality of what the platform brings to the table for countries like Australia, South Korea, Japan, even Singapore outweighs what I see as a reduced capability set that the Typhoon ultimately provides.

When we assess platforms we consider a whole pile of requirements - its not just about single platform performance, it includes raise, train, sustain and the biggest headache of all - integration of platform specific and propietary capabilities into the specific service as well as into the overall fighting force construct.

ultimately, single platform performance could end up being less than 50% of that platforms individual capability equation

 

[gryph]

There is a video walk around of the Super Super Hornet

Seems they were pushing this at India as well. I can't post the hyperlink yet (newbie), but search YouTube with this string:

"Aero India: Boeing's advanced Super Hornet upgrade options"

 

[fretburner]

I am a fan of the Typhoon, and not that long ago it wasn't too hard to get me to say that I'd prefer Typhoon over the SHornets, but the reality of what the platform brings to the table for countries like Australia, South Korea, Japan, even Singapore outweighs what I see as a reduced capability set that the Typhoon ultimately provides.

When we assess platforms we consider a whole pile of requirements - its not just about single platform performance, it includes raise, train, sustain and the biggest headache of all - integration of platform specific and propietary capabilities into the specific service as well as into the overall fighting force construct.

ultimately, single platform performance could end up being less than 50% of that platforms individual capability equation

That said, do you think it's better for Japan then to with an F-15SE? Assuming Boeing will want to co-develop this as with the F-18E/F "International"?

Sokor and Singapore will have the F-15K and F-15SG as their Tier 1 Fighters, but they're also "wired" for maritime strike. Whereas the only other F-18 Super Hornet operator is a lot further south in Australia.

Although, if you consider the type of AC the US operates in the region -- I would guess there will be more SHornets on Aircraft Carriers than Eagles on land bases?

 

[wormhole]

SecGates was pushing for Japan to consider the F-35 and LMA says the JSF can be available in the timeframe the Japanese require. The latest incentive to allow Japan to participate in the production of the jet addresses a key Japanese concern.

 

[Twinblade]

FINMECCANICA: JAPAN WILLING TO DISCUSS EUROFIGHTER OPTION; DECISION ON 42 JETFIGHTERS AFTER BUYING AMERICAN FOR YEARS

The Minister explained in an interview with the Financial Times that Japan's alliance with the United States is not the "guideline'' in the choice between the Eurofighter Typhoon and its American rivals, the Boeing FA-18 Super Hornet and the Lockheed F35 Joint Strike Fighter. Tokyo has postponed the decision for several years but seems now ready to choose. Its military alliance with Washington may no longer be crucial, particularly after the USA decided not to allow Japan to buy the F22 Lockheed, Japan's preferred option. The Japanese Minister has underlined that the choice will be based on technical criteria, in the interest of the nation. ''If they don't sell us the F22 and the F35 is not ready,'' it may take several years to complete, ''there are other aircrafts available that are good enough,'' said Ichikawa.

Although the article comes on behest of finmeccanica, i think its an equally good news for SH and EF.

 

[colay]

From what I've read, the F-35 proposal has been submitted to the Japanese Government and a decision is expected at year's end.
LM would have had to make commitments as to price and delivery commitments and If the Japanese find these credible, I see the F-35 winning the bid.

 

[t68]

FINMECCANICA: JAPAN WILLING TO DISCUSS EUROFIGHTER OPTION; DECISION ON 42 JETFIGHTERS AFTER BUYING AMERICAN FOR YEARS




Although the article comes on behest of finmeccanica, i think its an equally good news for SH and EF.

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in those meeting’s, I guess it will come down to $$( they still have to rebuild after the earthquakes and tsunami) and which model aircraft they would be looking for and how soon could they get it for Japan if they need them in a hurry who will forgo their build slots to accommodate Japan.

Me I personally think it’s a bluff as GF has stated it’s not the platform itself but all the add-on bits and pieces that the US bring to the table, as for the F-22A argument it would bring additional capability to the table in the form of Electronic warfare/signal intelligence role and is said to be able to fill the mini AWACS role forward in the battle area compared to a traditional platform I do see the benefit that this type of aircraft for Japan being so close to China with a hi/low mix of F22/F35A.

 

[colay]

The US shut the door on F-22s and its a clear choice between a Gen5 platform in the F35 or warmed over Gen4 jets. Now its reall a question of LM's credibility to meet the proposal commitments IMO.

 

[fretburner]

The Boeing offer states Block 2 SH. Does this mean the co-development of the SH "International" is now out of the question? If it is, the EF might get this contract, especially if they can get AESA radars on time.