NZDF General discussion thread

t68

Well-Known Member
If it was to come up about that NZ Army needed a gunship, another idea is if the NH90 could have stub wing fitted not sure if it could be done they might be able to put them on that or buy 5 Blackhawks from Australia and refurbish the airframes into MH60L DAP.

MH-60L DAP

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcGscVHfpV8&feature=related"]Why some hate UH-60 Blackhawks - YouTube[/nomedia]

Only problem with this idea you are increasing your fleet cost over more different airframe, cannot remember if this is right or not but oz Blackhawks from memory had a problem with the stub wing can any one confirm this.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If it was to come up about that NZ Army needed a gunship, another idea is if the NH90 could have stub wing fitted not sure if it could be done they might be able to put them on that or buy 5 Blackhawks from Australia and refurbish the airframes into MH60L DAP.

MH-60L DAP

Why some hate UH-60 Blackhawks - YouTube

Only problem with this idea you are increasing your fleet cost over more different airframe, cannot remember if this is right or not but oz Blackhawks from memory had a problem with the stub wing can any one confirm this.
The DAL video is quite impressive and the weapons load even more. Actually not necessarily increasing fleet cost if the MH60R was bought for the RNZN then you would have commonality of airframe across the fleet. Still 3 types, A109, U/MH60 and NH90 but not more. Also it is not an orphan, we would not be a lead operator because it already is a type well into service, the ADF uses it and we would be able to link into USN / US Army logistic trains. IIRC the MH60R is quasi modular then no probs to bolt on the DAL components. The MH60R Seahawk is US$28 million where the standard UH60M Blackhawk is US$5.9 million so low price of UH60's would appeal to pollies and bean counters if a really good case could be presented.

I am somewhat hesitant about attempting to turn the NH90 into a gunship at the moment.. This mainly because at present it is an unknown and very new. If we went down that path we could end up being lead operators and it could be a very costly path. Secondly same with marinising the NH90TTH. To be brutally honest, let someone else go down those paths. IMHO we would be far better served using tried and proved platforms in the short to medium term. If the NH90 developments do lead down that path in the medium term the fine and as long as we aren't the lead operator we may then follow it but not until then.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The one advantage of Wildcat is its ability to be switched between a recon/light attack rolled platform for the army and AsW asset for the Navy from day one. The airframes will all come marinised as standad and can be switched between roles very quickly with plug and play systems. This might prove a useful option for a country like NZ, which might be required to have an armed Wildcat supporting troops on the ground in Afghanistan one minute followed by the need to have a top end AsW capable helo assigned to an ANZAC Frigate the next. A single pool of common adaptable airframes reduces costs and eases the training burden - Navy & Army pilots brought up to speed on a common airframe.

Add .50 or .30 machine guns plus the new range of light and medium missiles planned for Wildcat and you end up with a very quick, flexible and adaptable helo that can be used over land and at sea with minimal changes.

Being able to 'swing' between roles must offer huge benefits to a country with such a small military footprint.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/future-lynx/
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The one advantage of Wildcat is its ability to be switched between a recon/light attack rolled platform for the army and AsW asset for the Navy from day one. The airframes will all come marinised as standad and can be switched between roles very quickly with plug and play systems. This might prove a useful option for a country like NZ, which might be required to have an armed Wildcat supporting troops on the ground in Afghanistan one minute followed by the need to have a top end AsW capable helo assigned to an ANZAC Frigate the next. A single pool of common adaptable airframes reduces costs and eases the training burden - Navy & Army pilots brought up to speed on a common airframe.

Add .50 or .30 machine guns plus the new range of light and medium missiles planned for Wildcat and you end up with a very quick, flexible and adaptable helo that can be used over land and at sea with minimal changes.

Being able to 'swing' between roles must offer huge benefits to a country with such a small military footprint.

AW159 Lynx Wildcat Battlefield Reconnaissance Helicopter - Army Technology
Yes it looks good but at US$27.14 million would we get same bang for buck than we would get MR60H's @ US$28 million plus the DAL fittings and then being tied into the USN logistics train plus the commonality with the ADF / USN. I have my reservations about the Wildcat being very new etc. However that said these are options that are available and good for discussion. And just one of my prejudices having served both in RNZAF & RNZN have to be RNZAF pilots for CAS :)
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Yes it looks good but at US$27.14 million would we get same bang for buck than we would get MR60H's @ US$28 million plus the DAL fittings and then being tied into the USN logistics train plus the commonality with the ADF / USN. I have my reservations about the Wildcat being very new etc. However that said these are options that are available and good for discussion. And just one of my prejudices having served both in RNZAF & RNZN have to be RNZAF pilots for CAS :)
Wildcat does build upon a tried and tested airframe and recent tests with the current batch of Lynx aboard one of the Daring class showed two can be deployed simultaneously (whether you could do the same aboard an ANZAC I'm not sure?). MR60H's have the advantage of size and US/Aus commonality, so on paper would appear to be the best option, particularly if you want to opt for an armed variant which can provide both lift, AsW and Limited fire support.

Wildcat fills the light recon void once held by Gazelle/Lynx MK8 for the UK, it sits between Apache (attack) and Merlin/Puma/Chinook (lift). NZ doesn't have the luxury of so many different platforms so an armed MR60H or SH60 would be the way to go.
 

Kiwigov

Member
I don't think this has been raised, but one of the reasons for the buying the Sea Sprite over the Lynx (Besides Australia) is the greater lift capability Sea Sprite offered. With the NH90 offering better lift the suggestion to acquire the Wildcat is the best option going forward.

Back to the travels.
IIRC, a key point in favour of the SH-2G (at the time) was that it had Maverick capability, and so was compatible with the existing stores of this munition held by the RNZAF for the A-4K fleet. Implicit and significant cost-saving in not having to invest in a new smart munition, plus the Maverick has anti-ship and anti-ground capabilities.

The Seahawk - as used by the RAN - did not (and still does not, afaik) have a missile capability, and the SeaLynx missile option was the radar-guided Seaskua (so not suitable for air-ground missions).
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Sorry about the lack of attention in the last few days. Things have been 'interesting' on the home front. And wet, windy and dark to boot.

Excellent couple of post's recce.k1!

With the recent decommissioning of the SH-2 simulator - does that mean it could be on the market ? Such a purchase could reduce the hours required on the fleet.

Also, I wonder if there are any USN SH-2G's sitting in storage ready for purchase to reduce to spares - I don't think they had too many hours prior to retirement
As others have already covered there were only a few SH-2G's built. From an entry on Globalsecurity, prior the Seasprite retirement, the US Naval Air Reserve operated 16, in two squadrons of eight each. What is less certain is how many of these SH-2G's were 'new built' helicopters, and how many were re-built, single-engined SH-2F's. Given that the Seasprites which the RAN and Egypt ordered were re-built SH-2F's, while the RNZN specifically ordered new-built helicopters, I suspect that only a small number of actual, new build SH-2G's were every manufactured. Particularly since the SH-2's that the USN ordered at that point were only to provide a naval helicopter for USN warships too small to operate the SH-60 which had already entered USN service by this point.

Has every one forgotten about the perfectly servicible SH-2H machines that the RAN ditched and are now in a warehouse somewhwere?
For starters, there never was a SH-2H, the latest variants are all SH-2G models, with different fitouts depending on the individual country's order and needs, i.e. SH-2G(NZ), SH-2G(E), SH-2G(A), etc. Further, I suspect that the SH-2G(A) Seasprites which the RAN was supposed to receive no longer exist. What I suspect is that the SH-2G(I) 'International' model helicopters for sale are the ex-RAN Seasprites, after some of the complex avionics had been removed to allow for aircraft flight certification. If memory serves, there are ~11 such aircraft for sale. However, unless the NZDF where to purchase the entire 'run' to both boost numbers available for training and operation, as well as keeping several airframes specifically for cannabilizing parts, then there is still the question of ongoing maintenance and support, as well as their potential costs.

IIRC, a key point in favour of the SH-2G (at the time) was that it had Maverick capability, and so was compatible with the existing stores of this munition held by the RNZAF for the A-4K fleet. Implicit and significant cost-saving in not having to invest in a new smart munition, plus the Maverick has anti-ship and anti-ground capabilities.

The Seahawk - as used by the RAN - did not (and still does not, afaik) have a missile capability, and the SeaLynx missile option was the radar-guided Seaskua (so not suitable for air-ground missions).
I could be mistaken, but I had thought one of the criteria that the RNZN had used was to achieve some measure of commonality with the RAN. Which of course did not work out given that the RAN wanted to receive such a wildly different aircraft apart from machinery. And never actually had enter service. Interesting, as I understand it one of the motives for RAN wanting such a small naval helicopter was that there was supposed to be some sort of joint RAN-Malaysian OPV order. This order (which also never seemed to materialize) would have allowed for operation of a small naval helicopter, but not a larger on like a SH-60/S-70B Seahawk.

IIRC as part of the RNZN order, the contract included costs for Maverick missiles and support.

-Cheers
 

JoeMcFriday

New Member
Hey Tod, is everything back on the mend where you are and all well with family?

Regarding ADF Seasprites (and why the Seasprite survived the OPC project when it was cancelled - pg12), ADM did an interesting review 3 years ago.

Australian Defence Magazine – November 2008 Seasprite – what went ...
Recce.k1,
That link didn't work for me but here's the ADM search result page for 'Seasprite' with a few more links to the sad tale.

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/index.cfm?type=farVeritySearch&bodyView=displayTypeBody

Cheers,
Mac
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Pretty sure we are not going to see 3 helos for every hanger capable ship in our navy just because Australia does it, if we tried to maintain every ratio they have we would go broke(er).

Just because a ship has a hanger does not mean it automatically needs to embark a helo, its all mission dependant, and the chances of all our helo capable ships being at sea at once are slim. If 2 vessels were to deploy to the same area whats to say 1 helo can't support both, its all about prioritising. Its abit like how the phalanxs can be moved around depending on where they are going. Canterbury does not take a helo everytime she leaves port meaning the hanger space and deck can be used for other things ala ex Hamel for things like extra vehicles or crew PT space.

With the extra 3 A109s being purchased 2 could just be permanently posted to Whenuapai and used for the less demanding tasks. Although not ideal maritime frames, for tasks such as moving DOC staff around remote islands, identifying foreign fishing vessels or just extending eyes, they provide a cost effective solution vs a fully sensor equipped purpose built helicopter c/w missiles and guns. From what I hear they probably have the same room if not more than a seasprite anyway but cost alot less to run. Just trying to utilise our current or(most) probable assets and not go off on a wild bottomless pit shopping spree.

The CY and the OPVs do not always need the fully gucci sea birds at their disposal, its a nice to have not need to have in some cases, so the A109s or even NH90 in CYs case can be utilised for certain tasks. Therefore 5 sprites(or replacement) plus 2 A109s and the occasional NH90 to cover navy outputs(that actually require helo support anyway) brightens the gloomy day. I would love to see (a few) extra frames aqquired be it the ex Aus sprites(although not really solving the main issues) or new build however 15-20 seems like a want not really a need. Again a simulator negates the requirement for fying hours that could be put to more operational use so could be another option if a new type were aqquired, NFH90 could be shared with RNZAF pilots and romeo could be shared with RAN pilots(if they don't have already).
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Pretty sure we are not going to see 3 helos for every hanger capable ship in our navy just because Australia does it, if we tried to maintain every ratio they have we would go broke(er).

Just because a ship has a hanger does not mean it automatically needs to embark a helo, its all mission dependant, and the chances of all our helo capable ships being at sea at once are slim. If 2 vessels were to deploy to the same area whats to say 1 helo can't support both, its all about prioritising. Its abit like how the phalanxs can be moved around depending on where they are going. Canterbury does not take a helo everytime she leaves port meaning the hanger space and deck can be used for other things ala ex Hamel for things like extra vehicles or crew PT space.
No offense, but I think you misunderstand what the RAN is doing...

The RAN Future Naval Helicopter requirement was for 24 naval helicopters to ensure that 8 were available operationally at any given moment. That is not at all the same as the RAN having 3 helicopters for every RAN helicopter capable ship, or helispot. The RAN already does not have every vessel embarked with a helicopter, there are expected to be ~12 surface combatants, plus the AOR with a helipad, as well as the Bay-class LPD and Canberra-class LHD's, each of which can support a number of helicopters.

The reasoning behind the RAN requirement for 24:8 or a 3:1 ratio aircraft to operationally available is there is a normal requirement that at any given moment one aircraft is available and/or operational, one is undergoing a maintenance cycle, and the third is in training or being stood up for a deployment and standing down from one. With the 5 RNZAF Seasprites, using that same ratio, at any given moment, one Seasprite would be operationally available and/or deployed. Given that both RNZN combatants have been getting deployed simultaneously and frequently in different operating theatres, there is a need to maintain a helicopter from both vessels at the same time. The RNZAF does not quite have enough aircraft to do that and meet a 3:1 ratio, nevermind if any Seasprites are given other taskings or deployed from other NZDF or RNZN assets.

Actually, the shortage of Seasprites is IMO illustrative of a larger issue which the NZDF is facing and that the RAN faced and encountered problems with. As has been mentioned by myself and others, a 3:1 ratio is fairly normal for many military assets, to achieve a sustainable capability. In order to sustain a company-level troop deployment, three companies are needed. In order for a ship to be kept on station or available, three ships are needed. Same holds true with aircraft.

Unfortunately for the NZDF, some of these assets there are so few of, that they are not being kept to a 3:1 ratio and that seems to be leading to sustainable operation issues. As the trend continues, I suspect things will only get worse. Take the two Anzac-class FFH's for example. They have frequently been sent on months-long deployments to the Mideast. Given that there are only two, if one is in the Mideast, then the other is available for operations within the S. Pacifc and/or around NZ, unless of course it has been taken into dock for a maintenance or overhaul cycle. If that were to be the case, then the RNZN would find itself with a combatant thousands of miles away, and unable to dispatch a warship to a local situation. The other alternative (which the RAN did to a degree on the amphibs and we know how that ended up) is for needed maintenance and overhaul cycles to be deferred. This can be done for some time, but it does catch up. Eventually, either the systems stop working until they are repaired/replaced, or the maintenance is finally done and usually costs more because more work, or more expensive work, needs to be completed.

The same holds true for units. If a unit is regularly cycled back and forth from an overseas or local deployment, without the training and standup or standdown cycles, then morale and readiness begins to suffer. Equipment starts needing to be replaced or receive major repairs if the needed overhauls are not done. Personnel lose interest and/or do not re-enlist if they are kept apart from their homes, familes and mates too often.

Fortunately things have not gotten so bad that Gov't expects the NZDF to have a single example of a type of asset and have that constantly available. Yet. All the same though, I do feel that Gov't and the public really need to be made aware if capability nn is a requirement for certain level of output, then the planning should be to determine in a worst case scenario what would be needed to deliver nn. So far, it seems as though much of the planning has been revolving around either best case scenarios, or Gov't dictating a requirement and level of funding, and the NZDF needing to scramble to make it work.

-Cheers
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Pretty sure we are not going to see 3 helos for every hanger capable ship in our navy just because Australia does it, if we tried to maintain every ratio they have we would go broke(er).

Just because a ship has a hanger does not mean it automatically needs to embark a helo, its all mission dependant, and the chances of all our helo capable ships being at sea at once are slim. If 2 vessels were to deploy to the same area whats to say 1 helo can't support both, its all about prioritising. Its abit like how the phalanxs can be moved around depending on where they are going. Canterbury does not take a helo everytime she leaves port meaning the hanger space and deck can be used for other things ala ex Hamel for things like extra vehicles or crew PT space.

With the extra 3 A109s being purchased 2 could just be permanently posted to Whenuapai and used for the less demanding tasks. Although not ideal maritime frames, for tasks such as moving DOC staff around remote islands, identifying foreign fishing vessels or just extending eyes, they provide a cost effective solution vs a fully sensor equipped purpose built helicopter c/w missiles and guns. From what I hear they probably have the same room if not more than a seasprite anyway but cost alot less to run. Just trying to utilise our current or(most) probable assets and not go off on a wild bottomless pit shopping spree.

The CY and the OPVs do not always need the fully gucci sea birds at their disposal, its a nice to have not need to have in some cases, so the A109s or even NH90 in CYs case can be utilised for certain tasks. Therefore 5 sprites(or replacement) plus 2 A109s and the occasional NH90 to cover navy outputs(that actually require helo support anyway) brightens the gloomy day. I would love to see (a few) extra frames aqquired be it the ex Aus sprites(although not really solving the main issues) or new build however 15-20 seems like a want not really a need. Again a simulator negates the requirement for fying hours that could be put to more operational use so could be another option if a new type were aqquired, NFH90 could be shared with RNZAF pilots and romeo could be shared with RAN pilots(if they don't have already).
The issue is not about Gucci toys or bottomless shopping pit but actually some practicality and gaining kit that is both suited to NZDF needs plus is economically and fiscally sound over its whole TOC. We ask our service personnel to place their lives in harms way for us. It is only right that we endeavour to provide them with the best resources we can. They cannot advocate in public nor the political arena like we can - if they did it could be called mutiny or sedition. Members of the NZ Armed Forces are not allowed an union to advocate on their behalf.

What I don't want is a repeat of the situation that we face with the Seasprites and I definitely am not advocating three aircraft per flight deck. What I am saying is that the Seasprite situation is not acceptable nor is reasonable to expect the RNZAF / RNZN to operate with far less kit than the taskings require.

Secondly, what I am saying is that the NZ Army needs indigenous CAS and should not be having to rely on allies to provide that. Now if we are going to have to buy new kit to sort the Seasprite problems then it would be logical, economically, operationally and fiscally sound to purchase one aircraft type to cover the RNZN maritime capabilities plus the CAS for the NZ Army. The advantage is that the said aircraft is able to operate off RNZN flight decks.

Thirdly regularly operating the A109 off a flight deck without it being marinised leads to corrosion and other problems. Expensive problems. I realise that they are cheap but for too long the NZDF has been lumbered with unsuitable kit because it is cheap. These so called cheap options turn out to be very expensive and us tax payers are the mugs who pay the financial costs and our service personnel pay the logistical, technical and stress related costs of operating unsuitable and not enough kit.

I realise that every time the Canterbury sails it does not carry a helo but the question would have to be asked why is this the case? SOP dictates that the two ANZAC frigates and the Canterbury would have minimum one helo on any deployment be it operational or training. The same would have said to be about the OPVs. So why aren't the helos deploying with ships? Because there are physically not enough helos for the job and the helos are not serviceable. IIRC the ANZACs can deploy with 2 helos but the RNZN hasn't either needed or been capable of that capability.

My choosing of 20 was based around a Wildcat purchase, so 5 operational aircraft for RNZN flight decks. The RNZN has shown that it can have 5 flight decks operational at the same time. 5 - 8 for training deployment with NZ Army, 3 for maintenance and 3 for spares a la NH90 and A109. This also keeps the rotary wing to 3 aircraft types rather than a collection of miscellaneous mismatched types across the board. If the MH60R was chosen then the order would be 3 less.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, I understand the rule of 3s I am a firm supporter of the 3rd frigate for this very reason but alas we do not have that either so I guess those Govt ideas have trickled into naval helo support thinking as well, I was just saying we have other assets that can be shared already within our inventory to alleviate the problem rather than purchaseing an increased number of new hardware to cover.

3 services 1 force to acheive a common goal requires a degree of cross equipment usage and can be done for certain things. Do not get me wrong I would like to see at the very least least 1 more sprite/90/romeo however just working with what we have or has been mooted. The ANZACs definately need a proper martime networked helo for the roles they are designed for but the other ships tasks can sometimes be alittle more mundane, less taxing and even land based in nature therefore using other/air force assets should be explored. In fact a sprite is not actually that roomy so for some jobs the other types would prove superior, not every task is navy war time related at sea.

I read the navy news where it said our sprite had to uplift a RAN sailor from a frigate for medical reasons as they did no have an embarked helo so they also have frame shortages per number of ship(or just did not require one), ours is just relative to our fleet size I suppose(didnt we originally only order 4 seasprites). There is no point deploying a helo c/w crew and maintainers if it is not required as the report shows postings were problematic due to amount of times at sea(especially RNZAF) so to avoid unnesscessary deployments 'because it has a hanger' could only alleviate this. Im sure it is not the intention to deploy all our assets at once but sometimes operational requirements dictate and we can't possibly cover every eventuality but prioritise and do the best we can. Its not just frame numbers that need to be considered but crews(on ship as well), maintainers, recruitment/retention, operating costs etc.

Due to the alleged operating costs and worsening problems I would personally like to see the orphan sprites gone and a more suitable type aqquired with more broader capabilities ie lift for humanitarian efforts. Hopefully the future frigate/tanker planning could determine size and numbers and OPV(and future littoral?) can utilise maybe a marinised A109 as lets be honest they are not warfighters nor overly technical therefore role to suit.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Hey guys, I understand the rule of 3s I am a firm supporter of the 3rd frigate for this very reason but alas we do not have that either so I guess those Govt ideas have trickled into naval helo support thinking as well, I was just saying we have other assets that can be shared already within our inventory to alleviate the problem rather than purchaseing an increased number of new hardware to cover.

3 services 1 force to acheive a common goal requires a degree of cross equipment usage and can be done for certain things. Do not get me wrong I would like to see at the very least least 1 more sprite/90/romeo however just working with what we have or has been mooted. The ANZACs definately need a proper martime networked helo for the roles they are designed for but the other ships tasks can sometimes be alittle more mundane, less taxing and even land based in nature therefore using other/air force assets should be explored. In fact a sprite is not actually that roomy so for some jobs the other types would prove superior, not every task is navy war time related at sea.

I read the navy news where it said our sprite had to uplift a RAN sailor from a frigate for medical reasons as they did no have an embarked helo so they also have frame shortages per number of ship(or just did not require one), ours is just relative to our fleet size I suppose(didnt we originally only order 4 seasprites). There is no point deploying a helo c/w crew and maintainers if it is not required as the report shows postings were problematic due to amount of times at sea(especially RNZAF) so to avoid unnesscessary deployments 'because it has a hanger' could only alleviate this. Im sure it is not the intention to deploy all our assets at once but sometimes operational requirements dictate and we can't possibly cover every eventuality but prioritise and do the best we can. Its not just frame numbers that need to be considered but crews(on ship as well), maintainers, recruitment/retention, operating costs etc.

Due to the alleged operating costs and worsening problems I would personally like to see the orphan sprites gone and a more suitable type aqquired with more broader capabilities ie lift for humanitarian efforts. Hopefully the future frigate/tanker planning could determine size and numbers and OPV(and future littoral?) can utilise maybe a marinised A109 as lets be honest they are not warfighters nor overly technical therefore role to suit.
With respect to RAN naval helicopter deployments, yes, the expectation is that not all surface vesels will always be deployed with one, hence the requirement for only 8 operationally available helicopters out of a planned fleet of 24, with ~16 which could operate one (or more in some cases).

As for current RAN helicopter assignments... Yes, sometimes there just are not enough helicopters available. One needs to remember, the RAN had been expecting to operate two naval helicopters, the S-70B-2 for ASW and the SH-2G(A) for ASuW. Given the whole RAN/ADF Seasprite debacle and the programme falling completely over and being cancelled, this meant that instead of the RAN having a mixed helicopter fleet of 16 Seahawks and 11 Seasprites for a total fleet of 27 helicopters, the RAN has been forced to operate with only the 16 Seahawks. And with the case of the RNZAF Seasprite being needed to lift a sick RAN sailor to medical attention because the RAN vessel did not have a helicopter available, that does illustrate the potential utility of a naval helicopter. The reason the current RAN naval helicopter does not have an AShM capability is because it was intended for an ASW role, and the it was the Seasprite which was to have the anti-surface role, complete with a heavy helicopter-launched AShM. The future RAN naval helicopter, the MH-60R will have an anti-surface capability utilizing AGM-114 Hellfire II missiles.

IMO that is worth noting, since the MH-60R could potentially also use those missiles against land/ground-based targets instead of smallcraft depending on the targeting and guidance systems. Also worth noting is that with the sensors available to MPA, some are now seeing service (like the RAAF's AP-3C Orions) as ground surveillance assets. It is possible that the sea-scanning radar aboard the MH-60R could also provide a similar sort of capability. That coupled with a Hellfire armament means that the MH-60R could possibly provide some CAS to Army if NZ needed them to. I would not at all suggest that the MH-60R be thought of as an alternative to a 'gunship' or be used for CAS in threatened, nevermind contested airspace. Just that the MH-60R or something like it is multi-role, able to provide a range of capabilities which the NZDF needs or would find useful.

-Cheers
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I agree with Tods views stated above. The Romeo's (with Hawklink) would be the political and operational solution for a post Sprite world when all is weighed up from a defence perspective. The problem however is the cost following a further few Billion more going on the Canterbury EQ bill. Realistically the cost replacing the Sprites with six Romeo's and a spare airframe for parts plus a basic support package on top will be closer to the NH-90 deal than many would be comfortable with.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I agree with Tods views stated above. The Romeo's (with Hawklink) would be the political and operational solution for a post Sprite world when all is weighed up from a defence perspective. The problem however is the cost following a further few Billion more going on the Canterbury EQ bill. Realistically the cost replacing the Sprites with six Romeo's and a spare airframe for parts plus a basic support package on top will be closer to the NH-90 deal than many would be comfortable with.
The option of pouring good money after bad into the Seasprites is not something that many would be comfortable with either. Remember that the Canterbury EQ effects upon the NZG deficit will be offset by the insurance and reinsurance payments when they come through once EQC gets its a into g. Also it is not as though we are going to pay cash up front for them today, although given the present NZ$ -US$ exchange rate that might be a good idea :) .

Another option, presented by another contributor, is that NZDF lease the required helos until a decision is made about what and how many replace the Seasprites. This could be a palatable and quick solution to the conundrum that is presented. It could in the short term be cost effective not committing the NZG to a large capital expense in the present economic climate. A leasing arrangement, for say 6 or 8 MH60Rs to the same specs as the RAN models, could be made with either Sikorsky or the USG, much the same as originally done with the Seasprites. In the future if the decision is decided to purchase the MH60Rs, as configured, then the lease costs could be offset against the purchase price. The spares packages would not be as expensive and problematic, as the Seasprites, and the holdings need not to be as high as the NH90, because we could be able to link into the USN logistic train alongside the RAN.
 
Last edited:

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
With respect to RAN naval helicopter deployments, yes, the expectation is that not all surface vesels will always be deployed with one, hence the requirement for only 8 operationally available helicopters out of a planned fleet of 24, with ~16 which could operate one (or more in some cases).
That is the "standard" planning assumption. It undoubtedly includes a surge capacity and the RAN LHD's/ HMAS Choules will also carry RAN/Army MRH-90 helos which could conduct basic surface search / overwatch operations, boarding, Vertrep and utility missions that don't necessarily require all the capabilities the MH-60R's will bring to the table.

As for current RAN helicopter assignments... Yes, sometimes there just are not enough helicopters available. One needs to remember, the RAN had been expecting to operate two naval helicopters, the S-70B-2 for ASW and the SH-2G(A) for ASuW. Given the whole RAN/ADF Seasprite debacle and the programme falling completely over and being cancelled, this meant that instead of the RAN having a mixed helicopter fleet of 16 Seahawks and 11 Seasprites for a total fleet of 27 helicopters, the RAN has been forced to operate with only the 16 Seahawks. And with the case of the RNZAF Seasprite being needed to lift a sick RAN sailor to medical attention because the RAN vessel did not have a helicopter available, that does illustrate the potential utility of a naval helicopter. The reason the current RAN naval helicopter does not have an AShM capability is because it was intended for an ASW role, and the it was the Seasprite which was to have the anti-surface role, complete with a heavy helicopter-launched AShM. The future RAN naval helicopter, the MH-60R will have an anti-surface capability utilizing AGM-114 Hellfire II missiles.

IMO that is worth noting, since the MH-60R could potentially also use those missiles against land/ground-based targets instead of smallcraft depending on the targeting and guidance systems. Also worth noting is that with the sensors available to MPA, some are now seeing service (like the RAAF's AP-3C Orions) as ground surveillance assets. It is possible that the sea-scanning radar aboard the MH-60R could also provide a similar sort of capability. That coupled with a Hellfire armament means that the MH-60R could possibly provide some CAS to Army if NZ needed them to. I would not at all suggest that the MH-60R be thought of as an alternative to a 'gunship' or be used for CAS in threatened, nevermind contested airspace. Just that the MH-60R or something like it is multi-role, able to provide a range of capabilities which the NZDF needs or would find useful.

-Cheers
And the Seakings obviously, which don't carry the ASW mission suites anymore but are still useful for the range of missions I mentioned above for the MRH-90's.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That is the "standard" planning assumption. It undoubtedly includes a surge capacity and the RAN LHD's/ HMAS Choules will also carry RAN/Army MRH-90 helos which could conduct basic surface search / overwatch operations, boarding, Vertrep and utility missions that don't necessarily require all the capabilities the MH-60R's will bring to the table.



And the Seakings obviously, which don't carry the ASW mission suites anymore but are still useful for the range of missions I mentioned above for the MRH-90's.
Got to wonder if there is a case for a joint ADF NZDF procurement of Lynx Wildcat or similar. It would be a very good replacement for the remaining army avation Kiowas, RANs sea deployed Squirrels and NZs Seasprites. It would be a great supplement to Australias MRH 90s and Tigers aswell as NZs NH 90s
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Got to wonder if there is a case for a joint ADF NZDF procurement of Lynx Wildcat or similar. It would be a very good replacement for the remaining army avation Kiowas, RANs sea deployed Squirrels and NZs Seasprites. It would be a great supplement to Australias MRH 90s and Tigers aswell as NZs NH 90s
Could be, but such a helo in ADF service (replacing Kiowa and Squirrel) is going to have to perform the training helo role for ADF.

Can the Lynx do that, but more importantly can it do so affordably?

I think the A109 would be a more likely bet...
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Apologies for changing the topic but I just have been reading a Flight Global article on the C17 C-17 delivers 20th anniversary lesson for defence contractors which states that:
As the aircraft matures, the C-17A has proven to be cheaper to operate per flight hour than the Lockheed Martin C-130H, according to USAF operational cost statistics obtained by Flightglobal.
Would be interesting how the numbers work out over a TOC.
 
Top