US freezes arms sales to Taiwan

surpreme

Member
Taiwan needs the F-16 badly to keep a steady air force that can keep PRC at bay. Some kind of deal was made between PRC and the US. The Taiwan air force is still a good force. Couple years ago there was a debate about an arm shipment which resulted in less defense deal. I still can't believe that Taiwan didn't get the F-16. Taiwan will get F16 at a later date.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
And what cooperation China has offered has not been withdrawn because of US arms sales to Taiwan.
The fact that the Obama administration has chosen to block the sale clearly indicates that there are valid reasons for doing so as China's cooperation is needed needed in other areas I mentioned previously such as in Central Asia or the Middle East or over Pakistan or North Korea - areas in which are very important and are of much concernto the U.S. None of us here are privy to any negotiations or any back channel deals or agreements that has or is being conducted amongst the 2 countries, so its really too early days to say that China has not offered any cooperation in return for the F-16s being blocked or that the U.S, will not get something out of it.

Are you saying that in your opinion this is the best course of action for the US?
No I'm certainly not saying that. I believe that any country that has a legitimate need to defend itself should be able to and given the means to - but we do not live in a perfect world and countries adopt policies that are seen to be unreasonable or illogical to further their interests.

Actually it does, because it demonstrates that China has a veto over part of US foreign policy. Today it's arms sales to Taiwan, tomorrow it could be something that affects other countries. You can't tell me that Taiwan is the US' lowest strategic priority in Asia. So if China gets its way over something to do with Taiwan, what does it get over other Asian nations?.
Why would American allies and ''friends'' get impression that China enjoys a veto simply because the U.S. has blocked a sale? This issue with Taiwan having problems getting approval to import ''Made In USA'' arms is nothing new and has been a around for decades. Regional countries will start feeling uneasy or having a loss in confidence the day Uncle Sam starts reducing its military levels in the region, starts cutting back on bilateral and multi-lateral exercises due to budget cuts and signals its intention not to get involved in any future Spratleys and that day hasn't come yet. America has on a number of occasions stressed to Japan, South Korea, Japan and ASEAN countries that it will continue to mantain its presence in the region and the region will continue to remain an area of supreme importance to U.S. interests. And no, I'm not saying that Taiwan is the U.S's lowest priority in the region, the fact remains that the U.S. also has other interests and concerns in the region.
 
Last edited:

exported_kiwi

New Member
Given the state of the U.S. economy, concerns about the Spratleys, plus the fact that great attempts are being made to improve its overall relationship with the PRC, its hardly surprising. Its definitely not the right time to ruffle a few feathers with the PRC even if it involves more than a billion dollars in hard cash.

You're quite right to mention the Spratleys but forgot the Paracels. I live in China and I can tell you that the sentiment against the US selling weapons to Taiwan is so prevalent, that if it happened, on large scale, I'd imagine large amounts of Chinese folks calling for the Chinese version of jihad, whatever that is!
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Guys let's get back a bit.

Taiwan want's 66 new F-16 (Block 52) and MLU for the rest of their 140+ F-16 A/B. The US now say they will give MLU for existing F-16. What not really clear (at least for me) is to what stage the MLU will be given. Is it to the eq level of latest F-16 model (thus Block 50+) ? I don't know for sure though if it's possible to upgrade (MLU) Block 15+ into Block 52.

However if the upgrade (MLU) do made existing F-16 have eq capability of Block 52, then US really still arming Taiwan with up to date capability. Well the news seems indicated the MLU will make those existing F-16 have capability similar to the latest F-16. If that really true, then it's a major MLU program.

While this 60+ order for new Block 52, is this something for replacement of their Mirage 2000-5 ? Because in my reading that's seems so. Are US really already officially deny the Taiwanese for this deal ? Because the news seems show the Taiwanese still feel they still got a shoot to get those 60+ Block 52.

However if the deal really being blocked perhaps then because the US feel that by getting MLU, the existing F-16 plus the Mirage 2000 still provide potent deterrence to current + near term PLAF force structure. In other word, with those MLU some guys in White House think Taiwan's current F-16 & Mirage still capable to take on J-10 and Chinese Flankers.

Perhaps the current questions now is do their Mirage 2000-5 still in capable conditions against PLAF. Because I feel with MLU the existing F-16 will still create considerable deterrence against J-10 or Flankers.
 

youpii

New Member
While this 60+ order for new Block 52, is this something for replacement of their Mirage 2000-5 ? Because in my reading that's seems so. Are US really already officially deny the Taiwanese for this deal ? Because the news seems show the Taiwanese still feel they still got a shoot to get those 60+ Block 52.

However if the deal really being blocked perhaps then because the US feel that by getting MLU, the existing F-16 plus the Mirage 2000 still provide potent deterrence to current + near term PLAF force structure. In other word, with those MLU some guys in White House think Taiwan's current F-16 & Mirage still capable to take on J-10 and Chinese Flankers.

Perhaps the current questions now is do their Mirage 2000-5 still in capable conditions against PLAF. Because I feel with MLU the existing F-16 will still create considerable deterrence against J-10 or Flankers.
The new batch of F-16s is for replacing the venerable F-5s that will retire soon.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Air_Force"]Republic of China Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Republic_of_China_National_Emblem.svg" class="image"><img alt="Republic of China National Emblem.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Republic_of_China_National_Emblem.svg/100px-Republic_of_China_National_Emblem.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/a/a0/Republic_of_China_National_Emblem.svg/100px-Republic_of_China_National_Emblem.svg.png[/ame]

Taiwanese F-16s A/B are Block 20.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
You're quite right to mention the Spratleys but forgot the Paracels. I live in China and I can tell you that the sentiment against the US selling weapons to Taiwan is so prevalent, that if it happened, on large scale, I'd imagine large amounts of Chinese folks calling for the Chinese version of jihad, whatever that is!
I did not mention the Paracels because the PRC already occupies it. While Vietnam would risk going to war if any of its claims in the Spratleys were in danger of being seized by the PRC it does not have the capability nor has it expressed an intention to take back the Paracels.

There are extremely strong sentiments regarding Taiwan because the average Chinese sees Taiwan as part of China and sees America as interfering in China's internal affairs. TheTaiwanese of course see things differently, hence the big problem.
 
Last edited:

fretburner

Banned Member
One of the reports I read was that the US Congress did NOT approve of NEW F-16 C/D but approved upgrades to all Taiwanese F-16 A/B to the Block 50/52 standard and with potential AESA upgrade (SABR or RACR).

Not ideal for the Taiwanese but a pretty good compromise, if that report I read was dead on. I'll try to look that up and post a link.

Edit: found it! Taiwan F-16 Upgrade second only to UAE Block 60
 

youpii

New Member
One of the reports I read was that the US Congress did NOT approve of NEW F-16 C/D but approved upgrades to all Taiwanese F-16 A/B to the Block 50/52 standard and with potential AESA upgrade (SABR or RACR).

Not ideal for the Taiwanese but a pretty good compromise, if that report I read was dead on. I'll try to look that up and post a link.

Edit: found it! Taiwan F-16 Upgrade second only to UAE Block 60
The 60+ F-5 are totally obsolete and will be scrapped soon. I don't see Taiwan Air Force accepting such a large decrease in airframe numbers when Beijing is buying more and more advanced fighters.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The 60+ F-5 are totally obsolete and will be scrapped soon. I don't see Taiwan Air Force accepting such a large decrease in airframe numbers when Beijing is buying more and more advanced fighters.
Well if the US Congress only approved for upgrading existing F-16, but the upgrade packages still provide those F-16 eq capability with the latest F-16 batches, plus the existing Mirage 2000 still performing well then Taiwan perhaps should reopen IDF Ching-Kuo manufacturing line. Afterall. IDF itself was designed as F-5 replacement.

I know it's not perfect. But considering the situation, what else Taiwan can do. At this moment the existing supplier won't provide new airplanes but only agree to heavily upgraded the existing ones (got some old remarks that even French still open to discuss upgrading existing Mirage 2000). Even potential there's additional Mirage 60 2000-9 in market soon (ex UAE), if the deal reached between French and UAE to resale them back to French as part of Rafale deal. However if US won't add new airframe, and what chances the French will also add new airframes.

Perhaps under circumstances, Taiwan should considered finding new packages for ('say') IDF NG. I think given new smaller AESA coming to market, and better electronics plus composite material available in the market, Taiwan can create suitable IDF NG that can closely match latest F-16, let alone latest J-10.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Congress has not taken any decision on this matter but is clearly in favour of new F-16s being sold. The reports are that the ADMINISTRATION have refused to sell new F-16s. Though Senator Cornyn has said that if Obama doesn't allow the new jets to be sold, he'll put it into the annual defence bill. That might get some traction in Congress. Obama might be pressured not to veto it.

US Senator Proposes Back-Door F-16 Sale to Taiwan « VOA Breaking News

I agree that if Taiwan can't get new jets it will have to invest in a new IDF. There are only two choices with no new jets - let the airforce decline or bite on the bullet and possibly loose hundreds of millions of dollars on something that might not be that good.
 

wormhole

New Member
That's a significant qualitative increase but Taiwan needs numbers as well. I wonder how many hours are left on those A/B Vipers? I didn't read anything on extending the lifetimes of the airframes.

If not for the politics, Taiwan would be an ideal prospect for the F-35B. Taiwan's airbases are going to be on the receiving end of China's massive missile inventory if hostilities breakout.
 
Last edited:

Ananda

The Bunker Group
That's a significant qualitative increase but Taiwan needs numbers as well. I wonder how many hours are left on those A/B Vipers? I didn't read anything on extending the lifetimes of the airframes.

If not for the politics, Taiwan would be an ideal prospect for the F-35B. Taiwan's airbases are going to be on the receiving end of China's massive missile inventory if hostilities breakout.
The usual packages for MLU (let alone a thourough ones like for Taiwanese F-16 being suggested will get) usually will involved airframes lifetime extensions and improvement in avionics.

I agree, if politics is not a factor than Taiwan can be offered a participation involvement in F-35 program. Still some of the Politicians in US worried that involving Taiwan will eventually provide the Technology to China (due to the leaks or eventual 'peacefull' integration of Taiwan to China). Taiwan it self already involved with secondary airbases or emergency airbases scenario. I believe they already prepared much of their highway system for that.
 

NICO

New Member
The usual packages for MLU (let alone a thourough ones like for Taiwanese F-16 being suggested will get) usually will involved airframes lifetime extensions and improvement in avionics.

I agree, if politics is not a factor than Taiwan can be offered a participation involvement in F-35 program. Still some of the Politicians in US worried that involving Taiwan will eventually provide the Technology to China (due to the leaks or eventual 'peacefull' integration of Taiwan to China). Taiwan it self already involved with secondary airbases or emergency airbases scenario. I believe they already prepared much of their highway system for that.
I really don't see Taiwan buying or having access to F35, not when China doesn't even want them to get new F16s. No way that is happening.
 

youpii

New Member
The usual packages for MLU (let alone a thourough ones like for Taiwanese F-16 being suggested will get) usually will involved airframes lifetime extensions and improvement in avionics.
I think some Belgian/Dutch F-16MLU were mothballed. Maybe they are on sale.
 

wormhole

New Member
Those 60 Mirage 2000-9s the UAE is said to be interested in selling would be a nice fallback.. haven't been used that much and very capable aircraft. I wonder if UAE and French politics are amenable to a Taiwan deal?
 

NICO

New Member
Those 60 Mirage 2000-9s the UAE is said to be interested in selling would be a nice fallback.. haven't been used that much and very capable aircraft. I wonder if UAE and French politics are amenable to a Taiwan deal?
Probably best bet for Taiwan of getting some fighters, UAE selling some gas/oil to China at a nice price and France convincing China that they are just second hand me downs.:lol3 Also the fact that Taiwan already operates the 2000 is a plus, China might agree to look the other way,maybe. I wouldn't bet on it though.

As previously mentioned, Taiwan doesn't just need some upgraded F16As turned Block60s but they need to replace some old fighters like the F5s, they need quantity also. All those new fighters China is producing all really good quality but the numbers I am sure are producing some anxiety to Taiwan military. Taiwan can't just rely on quality, they have to keep the numbers close or at least respectable to China.
 

youpii

New Member
Probably best bet for Taiwan of getting some fighters, UAE selling some gas/oil to China at a nice price and France convincing China that they are just second hand me downs.:lol3 Also the fact that Taiwan already operates the 2000 is a plus, China might agree to look the other way,maybe. I wouldn't bet on it though.
UAE can sell directly to Taiwan. France does not need to be officially involved in that.
 
Top