Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

[yeoman's job]

Wow thats the first time ive heard a general say that.

I wish Australian Defence could admit the same thing. Instead we have every section of defence stabbing each other in the back in an attempt to get as much money and equipment as possible. :lul

Well, probably we just lost our pride. Australia has still plenty of it. We've accepted the fact that we are poor and cannot afford it, but wise enough to understand that international conflict can be remedied through diplomatic means.

 

[gforce]

Well, probably we just lost our pride. Australia has still plenty of it. We've accepted the fact that we are poor and cannot afford it, but wise enough to understand that international conflict can be remedied through diplomatic means.

Plenty of what aircraft?

 

[gforce]

'Philippine Air Force has had no fighter jets since 2005' - Oban
12-Jun-11, 9:55 PM | Ben Cal, Philippine News Agency
'Philippine Air Force has had no fighter jets since 2005' - Oban - Interaksyon.com

MANILA - Amid rising tensions with China over the disputed Spratly Islands, the head of the Philippine military raises the following stark reminder: Since 2005 the Philippines has had no jet fighters to protect the country’s airspace.

Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) chief of staff Gen. Eduardo Oban Jr., in an interview with the Philippines News Agency, confirmed the predicament of the Philippine Air Force (PAF) - that it has had no supersonic jet fighter interceptors since its F-5 jets were phased out six years ago as obsolete.

“Our pilots have no more fighter jets to scramble, unlike before,” Oban, himself a jet pilot, said.

Oban said that the PAF at present has no capability to intercept hostile planes that may intrude into Philippine skies. He added that the PAF also needs to modernize its radar system.

The PAF used to be the No. 1 air force in Southeast Asia after World War II, the AFP chief said, until in the late 1960s it started lagging behind its neighbors in the procurement of new fighter jets.

In the early 1950s, the PAF acquired two squadrons of Sabre jets, the top of the line jet fighters at that time. This was complemented by a squadron of propeller-driven Mustang planes.

In 1965, the Philippines was one of the first countries in the world to acquire from the United States 30 F-5 Freedom fighter jets. In 1979 the country purchased an additonal 25 Crusader jet aircraft also from the U.S.

But over the years, the PAF has found itself depleted of fighter planes.

The last F5 was flown in 2005 before it was decommissioned.

“At present we don’t have any fighter jets,” Oban told the PNA.

Earlier this month, InterAksyon.com also ran an exclusive interview with Philippine Navy Rear Admiral Alex Pama, where it was pointed out how the country's navy, too, was basically making do with meager resources, even in the face of brewing crises - and constant tension - in the South China Sea. (Owing to new tensions with China, the Philippines now refers to the body of water as the "West Philippine Sea".)

Oban noted that the 1995 AFP Modernization Plan was passed by Congress and approved by then President Fidel V. Ramos for the AFP to acquire new planes and armaments. But the 1997 Asian financial crisis dampened the modernization program as the U.S. currency soared to as much as P50 to a dollar. Oban said that when the modernization program was first being drafted, the exchange rate was only one U.S. dollar to P20.

“In fact, we anticipated that by the time we ordered new planes, the exchange rate would be one U.S. dollar to P30, but we were wrong,” Oban added.

Still, Oban said the AFP will continue its modernization program to upgrade the AFP’s capability so it can carry its mandate to protect the sovereignty of the country.

To be delivered in November this year are combat helicopters the PAF has ordered from Poland. Also to be delivered are additional jet trainer planes.

The Philippine Navy has just acquired one Jacinto Class vessel that would boost its capability to patrol the country’s territorial waters.

Oban said that the guidance of Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin is to acquire multi-role fighter planes and helicopters.

He said the AFP prefers to buy brand-new jet fighters rather than second-hand.

The delivery of the aircraft will take at least three years.

When asked what type of jet fighters the Air Force would want, Oban said that is still being studied by the PAF.

There are a variety of jet fighters available in the world market such as the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18, all US-made; Kfir jet made by Israel; Tornado jet developed by Britain, Germany and Italy; and the Russian Sokhoi jet fighter, among others.

Sixteen years after the 1995 AFP Modernization Law was passed, the AFP is still struggling to upgrade its equipment, particularly the acquisition of new jet fighters and naval ships.

Oban said that another factor that delayed the modernization plan was the resurgence of insurgency in the late 1990s and early 2000s which the AFP had to shift gear, giving priority to domestic problem and leaving behind the needs for external security.

 

[STURM]

I read somewhere that after pulling out of Subic and Clark, the U.S. transfered 4 ground based search radars to the PAF. Is there any truth to this report? Also, prior to the U.S. pullout, what kind of radars were operated to monitor national airspace?

 

[ed famie]

'Philippine Air Force has had no fighter jets since 2005' - Oban
12-Jun-11, 9:55 PM | Ben Cal, Philippine News Agency
'Philippine Air Force has had no fighter jets since 2005' - Oban - Interaksyon.com

I wonder why a country like the Philippines was not able to maintain or purchase a couple or a number of jet fighter, Myanmar and other African countries was able to have a number of jet fighters, are we really a poor country who cannot maintain or purchase a respectable jet fighters? or our government leaders and military generals are really corrupt individuals? just wondering . . . .

 

[Ananda]

I wonder why a country like the Philippines was not able to maintain or purchase a couple or a number of jet fighter, Myanmar and other African countries was able to have a number of jet fighters, are we really a poor country who cannot maintain or purchase a respectable jet fighters? or our government leaders and military generals are really corrupt individuals? just wondering . . . .

Sometimes perceptions of threat also determines what one particullar country will decide to invest on her Armed Forces. Perhaps Philipines politicians still think that the biggest threat to Philipines comes from domestic insurgencies that they're more willing to invest on that area, rather than potential external threats.

Also the sense of priority and urgencies. Investing in Armed Forces now this days is very expensive. In many developing nations, Economic Stability is considered more urgent for National Stability and Political Survival on current Adminstrations or Regime. Perhaps Philipines politician considered their political fortune will be much more depended on providing Economic stability and development, rather than providing new fighters to face-off other claimants Fighters above Spartly air spaces.

In short, eventhough several less bigger economy than Philipines can afford to build better equiped Armed Forces than Philipines ones, that decisions will not enitirely based on Economic reality, but more also to Political Survival and Threats Perceptions each Administrations/regime has.

 

[Cailet]

I wonder why a country like the Philippines was not able to maintain or purchase a couple or a number of jet fighter, Myanmar and other African countries was able to have a number of jet fighters, are we really a poor country who cannot maintain or purchase a respectable jet fighters? or our government leaders and military generals are really corrupt individuals? just wondering . . . .

Well Myanmar was until very recently a military dictatorship and dictators do love their shiny toys.

The Philippines has a very limited budget and modern fighters are very expensive. From the perspective of their military and political leadership it is probably better to strengthen their ability to perform counterinsurgency and sea patrol for which they have the money and the personnel than to try and build an expensive fighter force of limited utility from scratch. A squadron of fighters will cost much more than any other military asset they could feasibly acquire at this time unless they want to half-arse it and buy aircraft too old to be of use as a fighter force (MiG-21 for example). Either way they end up with an expensive aircraft that does little to help with current problems and eats the military's budget like a hungry kid at the buffet table.

Bang-for-buck is the order of the day and much as national prestige would be enhanced by a squadron or two of F-16s, national security would see little short-term benefit. In the longer term a fighter force is thoroughly desirable but for the Philippines at the moment the dispute over the Spratlys with China is held in check by the US and there is no short-term threat from any other neighbour so the fighter force can wait until the economy improves and more 4th-gen aircraft begin to hit the secondhand market with the arrival of the F-35.

 

[T.C.P]

Well Myanmar was until very recently a military dictatorship and dictators do love their shiny toys.

The Philippines has a very limited budget and modern fighters are very expensive. From the perspective of their military and political leadership it is probably better to strengthen their ability to perform counterinsurgency and sea patrol for which they have the money and the personnel than to try and build an expensive fighter force of limited utility from scratch. A squadron of fighters will cost much more than any other military asset they could feasibly acquire at this time unless they want to half-arse it and buy aircraft too old to be of use as a fighter force (MiG-21 for example). Either way they end up with an expensive aircraft that does little to help with current problems and eats the military's budget like a hungry kid at the buffet table.

Bang-for-buck is the order of the day and much as national prestige would be enhanced by a squadron or two of F-16s, national security would see little short-term benefit. In the longer term a fighter force is thoroughly desirable but for the Philippines at the moment the dispute over the Spratlys with China is held in check by the US and there is no short-term threat from any other neighbour so the fighter force can wait until the economy improves and more 4th-gen aircraft begin to hit the secondhand market with the arrival of the F-35.

I don't know why Phillipine hasn't gone for a few sqs of F-16s, The uS has been offering them a lot lately.

I don't know how man y fighters make a sq in Phillipines but 2-3 should be enough to make a strong deterrent force.

 

[kimeli]

cant we make our own planes instead of buying them from other countries

 

[T.C.P]

cant we make our own planes instead of buying them from other countries

For some obvious reasons no.

1. Philipines does not have an aeronautical engineering industry, so it lacks the engineering capabilty to build fighter jets.

2. Philipines also lacks the resources to just build an air craft manufacturing industry capable of building fighter jets out of scratch.

3. I don't think Philipines has the skilled man power with the capability to design and later build jets

3. It would be highly uneconomical, not only do you have to spend a huge amount of money to build the plant, you also have to place a big enough order on the air craft to bring the unit price to an affordable level, and since the jet requirement of the PAF is not likely to exceed 60 air craft for another 2 decades, it would not be logical to build fighters.

 

[ManilaBoy]

For some obvious reasons no.

1. Philipines does not have an aeronautical engineering industry, so it lacks the engineering capabilty to build fighter jets.

2. Philipines also lacks the resources to just build an air craft manufacturing industry capable of building fighter jets out of scratch.

3. I don't think Philipines has the skilled man power with the capability to design and later build jets

3. It would be highly uneconomical, not only do you have to spend a huge amount of money to build the plant, you also have to place a big enough order on the air craft to bring the unit price to an affordable level, and since the jet requirement of the PAF is not likely to exceed 60 air craft for another 2 decades, it would not be logical to build fighters.

Where do you based all these statements from? Are they factual infomation or just an assumption...Aerotech Industries Philippines just recently delivered 18 brand new SF-260's aircraft to the PAF and it is a local manufacturer...

 

[Todjaeger]

Where do you based all these statements from? Are they factual infomation or just an assumption...Aerotech Industries Philippines just recently delivered 18 brand new SF-260's aircraft to the PAF and it is a local manufacturer...

There is a significant difference between local assembly from knockdown kits and component manufacture, and cradle to grave design, manufacture, assemble and launch fighter/jet trainer aircraft.

Take a look at which countries have sufficient industrial and design capacity for be able to do so. How many countries have been able to do this in the last two decades?

From memory it is
US
Russia
China
Taiwan
Japan
South Korea
France
Italy
Sweden

Also, there have been a few Euro consortium designs which were multi-national in scope.

In addition, many of the designs which were/are manufactured involved components of foreign design/manufacture.

Therefore, I would suggest asking oneself the question, "if Germany and the United Kingdom both participate in multi-national fighter consortiums because their respective domestic aerospace industrial complexes cannot economically create a competitive fighter aircraft to meet their defence needs, how likely is it that the Philippines could?"

I admit, the defence situation for the Philippines is quite different, which means a 3rd or early 4th gen fighter might be suitable. These in turn are 'easier' to design an manufacture since there would not be groundbreaking work to design them. All the same, does the Philippines have the engineering expertise to design and test a fighter? Does the aerospace industry have the facility to handle all the required component manufacture as well as aircraft assembly? And what would such a programme cost?

I am certain that the Philippines can purchase a much more capable aircraft from a foreign source, or purchase knockdown kits for local assembly of foreign designs, than the Philippines would get if they chose to invest in a domestic design and manufacture.

-Cheers

 

[T.C.P]

Where do you based all these statements from? Are they factual infomation or just an assumption...Aerotech Industries Philippines just recently delivered 18 brand new SF-260's aircraft to the PAF and it is a local manufacturer...

@Manila Boy, Todjaeger has already made an excellent reply to your post but I just ant to add something, do you think it would be economically viable for Philippines to manufacture and design an new fighter?

Like Todjaeger says there is a difference between designing a totally new air craft and assembling them from kits. Can Philippines provide the funding required to build the factory, R&D centre and procure all the expensive machinery needed to equip them? and does Philippine have the necessary skilled man power and expertise to maintain and use these equipment to their fullest?

Even if Philippine wanted to license manufacture an existing fighter do the PAF have the capabilty to put an order that would be large enough to make this domestic manufacturing economic?

There is no logical reason for Philippines to manufacture their own air craft when their domestic requirement is so low and when they have very little chance of exporting them and even more importantly when there are so many air craft already available( at good prices) that would suit the PAF's requirements.

 

[STURM]

Aerotech Industries Philippines just recently delivered 18 brand new SF-260's aircraft to the PAF and it is a local manufacturer...

And who designed the airframe and avionics? Where was the engine built?

If the Philippines were ever to attempt to build it's own fighter, billions would be needed for the R&D and to establish a production line.

 

[Ananda]

Where do you based all these statements from? Are they factual infomation or just an assumption...Aerotech Industries Philippines just recently delivered 18 brand new SF-260's aircraft to the PAF and it is a local manufacturer...

I think the guys already stated the fact that assembling the kit is not the same with building and manufacturing the aircraft. Under Soeharto, Indonesia pour billions of USD for DI/IAe only to build CN 235 and N 250. Those are only commuters and light trasnports. Fighters is different thing. We participate and take 20% share on KFX program with South Korea. and that's means we've been calculated will pour USD 2 billion only in R&D. That's an optimistic calculation which calculate all R&D for KFX only need USD 10 bio for new 4.5++ gen aircraft.

Now if PAF got USD 2 bio (for example), which would better for PAF, building new Fighters (which off course no fighter program R&D will be enough for only USD 2 bio), or you just buy fighters and the supporting infrastructures for that kind of Money.

 

[ed famie]

I think the guys already stated the fact that assembling the kit is not the same with building and manufacturing the aircraft. Under Soeharto, Indonesia pour billions of USD for DI/IAe only to build CN 235 and N 250. Those are only commuters and light trasnports. Fighters is different thing. We participate and take 20% share on KFX program with South Korea. and that's means we've been calculated will pour USD 2 billion only in R&D. That's an optimistic calculation which calculate all R&D for KFX only need USD 10 bio for new 4.5++ gen aircraft.

Now if PAF got USD 2 bio (for example), which would better for PAF, building new Fighters (which off course no fighter program R&D will be enough for only USD 2 bio), or you just buy fighters and the supporting infrastructures for that kind of Money.

You are correct, it is more economically and practically right if the Phil.Air Force just buy a new fighter jet including the trainer jet to enhance the capability of the pilot, F-16 or the Mirage 2000 I think are good enough to start with, I'm sure there are other planes out there that are also good for the PAF

 

[gforce]

Air Force in market for two MiG-29s or F-18 Hornets
20-Jun-11, 8:54 PM | Philippine News Agency
Air Force in market for two MiG-29s or F-18 Hornets - Interaksyon.com

The Philippine Air Force (PAF) is already scouting for at least two Mig-29 Fulcrum Fighter Jets or F-18 Hornets while the Philippine Navy (PN) is window shopping for state-of-the-art frigates as part of the modernization program of the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP), an AFP official said Monday.

The Mikoyan MiG-29 (Fulcrum) is a fourth-generation jet fighter aircraft designed in the former Soviet Union. Developed in the 1970s by the Mikoyan design bureau, it entered service with the Soviet Air Force in 1983, and remains in use by the Russian Air Force as well as by many other nations.

The McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F/A-18 Hornet is a supersonic, all-weather carrier-capable multirole fighter jet, designed for dogfights and air-to-ground missions.

AFP Modernization Program Management Office head Brig. Gen. Roy Deveraturda, said the Philippine air force and navy are getting a huge part of the modernization budget, with Malacanang increasing AFP's annual modernization allocation from P5 billion to P8 billion.

Deveraturda said the acquisitions are already on the priority list of the Aquino Administration for the next five years. He added the procurement and bidding are also underway for the acquisition of weaponry and logistics.

AFP’s priorities are for fighter jets, patrol helicopters with sensors, search-and-rescue helicopters, transport aircraft, and strategic sea-lift vessels, Deveraturda said.

“We also plan to acquire a brand-new Hamilton class cutter for our Coast Guard,” he said.

The government has pledged to accelerate the AFP's modernization program, in the face of tensions with China over the Spratly Islands and the South China Sea. Chinese incursions in Philippine-claimed waters have raised anxieties in the region, and have exposed the severe handicap of the AFP. The Philippine Air Force, among other things that have been underscored in recent weeks, has not had fighter jets to protect the Philippines' territories since 2005, when it decommissioned the last of its F-5s.

 

[SASWanabe]

“We also plan to acquire a brand-new Hamilton class cutter for our Coast Guard,” he said.

are they going to buy a new build or something?

 

[Todjaeger]

Air Force in market for two MiG-29s or F-18 Hornets
20-Jun-11, 8:54 PM | Philippine News Agency
Air Force in market for two MiG-29s or F-18 Hornets - Interaksyon.com

I read the linked article, and several things come to mind. I am uncertain whether there is something which is getting lost in translation, the journo writing the story does not know what they are going on about, or the AFP is making some very odd... choices.

Yes, I know this is the Philippine Air Force thread, but the article did mention purchasing a new Hamilton-class cutter for the Coast Guard. The issue with that is that the newest Hamilton-class cutter, the USCGC Midgett (WHEC-726) was commissioned nearly forty years ago. Now if the Philippine Navy was planning on getting additional examples of ex-USCG Hamilton-class cutters, that would make sense. At the same time, that would be quite a bit different than what a literal reading of the article states.

The other thing, which IMO is even more questionable, is any notion of the Philippine Air Force purchasing two (2!) MiG-29 or F/A-18 jet fighters.

Having only two aircraft like that in inventory is IMO worse than having none. Fighter aircraft are expensive to purchase, even second hand. Additionally, if they are to provide any sort of useful capability, there is a whole support and sustainment train which they require. Maintenance, exercise, training, pilots, etc. In addition, in order for the capability to be 'useful' a sufficient number is required. Two fighters is basically the minimum required to provide a flight element with flight leader and a wingman. Aside from the occasional flyover and perhaps intercept of a suspect aircraft, two fighters are not going to be enough.

A general rule of thumb regarding most military equipment, is that in order to have a single unit available for service at any given moment, three units are required. In this case, in order for a single flight element to always be available, a total of six fighters would be needed. Realistically, more would be required if the MiG-29 was chosen, since the USSR had a completely different philosophy and support train setup

At this point, the information provided in the article I consider highly suspect, or incomplete.

-Cheers

 

[Twinblade]

Air Force in market for two MiG-29s or F-18 Hornets
20-Jun-11, 8:54 PM | Philippine News Agency
Air Force in market for two MiG-29s or F-18 Hornets - Interaksyon.com

Mig-29 will be a very good choice. You can get a second hand squadron dirt cheap, get it updated to Smt standard for 10 million a plane and you have something really formidable for air policing.