Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Aussie Digger]

My initial response was WA does have a lighter on level of personnel, but I think the argument lost traction when the "scenario" they described was a clear example of an occasion when the SASR would be used.

WA is lighter on for personnel that is true, but it is also lighter on for industrial capacity to support these military assets, personnel to equip them and opportunities for defence families. Funny how fed up, non-ADF partners get when they are posted to the middle of nowhere time and time again. Can't imagine why that has an effect on separation rates...



Between RAAF Darwin, RAAF Tindal, 1 Brigade in Darwin and Adelaide, Maritime Patrol and Response Group in Adelaide and the aforementioned assets in WA itself, I think the Western half of the Country is VERY well covered considering the overall capacity and personally I think these "analysts" might want to get their maps out again. India is NOT closer to Australia than China is...

I would also argue that the West is better covered than the East, except for air cover, but the difference between air and naval power is that air power can cover ground much more quickly... Apparently these "analysts" don't quite manage to grasp that concept.

Nor do they seem overly concerned about the cost of moving our major military assets away from their current locations, nor the potential issues in moving them as far away as you possibly can from our major population and industrial centres and yet have them remain on mainland Australia...

One starts to wonder exactly what their motivation is in making these comments, when you factor a few of these issues into it...

 

[icelord]

wow i just found this

Commemorating our Service to the Nation 1911-1915 - Royal Australian Navy

i woulda thought the RAN would have a fleet review in 2011 not 2013

can anyone confirm that we wont see a fleet review/ ceremonial entry till 2013?

There will be a "mess dinner" to celebrate, in other words officers cake and arse party,no one else invited...:roll2

The review is to celebrate the first ships to sail in sydney harbour and form the Royal Australian Navy. With that in mind, following a march in the city im planning a massive...gathering:cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

There will be a "mess dinner" to celebrate, in other words officers cake and arse party,no one else invited...:roll2

the poor old mess has changed from times past.

I was in the officers mess at willy last week and it only had cadets and flogs - only one officer to be seen at breakfast....

 

[rip]

While potentially speculative at this time, though I am sure there is planning going on or in place, I wonder what location would be suitable for Sub Base East, where would be suitable locations, from a hypothetical situation you might be able to comment GF, I'm sure others will.

In my mind:
Garden Island Naval Base Sydney to crowded with the Canberra's coming, not mention rather open to the public in terms of seeing what is at home or not. They could seize the finger wharf I suppose, though it would upset a few people ie Russell.

Melbourne: to far south?

Brisbane? Well the sold HMAS Moreton, so would I be assume would mean a new land purchase, highly unlikely imo.

That effectively leaves Townsville, Cairns or Darwin,

Cairns and Darwin with Naval bases of their own, my knowledge of those bases are limited, so to get to the point which of these three could Submarines be home ported at. Cairns with potentially the most room, especially if once the Hydrography fleet is rationalised, the retirement of the LCH's would leave wharf space.

Anyone care to comment?

Cairns is not a bad liberty port

 

[icelord]

cairns is not a bad liberty port

agreed!!!!

 

[icelord]

While potentially speculative at this time, though I am sure there is planning going on or in place, I wonder what location would be suitable for Sub Base East, where would be suitable locations, from a hypothetical situation you might be able to comment GF, I'm sure others will.

In my mind:
Garden Island Naval Base Sydney to crowded with the Canberra's coming, not mention rather open to the public in terms of seeing what is at home or not. They could seize the finger wharf I suppose, though it would upset a few people ie Russell.

Melbourne: to far south?

Brisbane? Well the sold HMAS Moreton, so would I be assume would mean a new land purchase, highly unlikely imo.

That effectively leaves Townsville, Cairns or Darwin,

Cairns and Darwin with Naval bases of their own, my knowledge of those bases are limited, so to get to the point which of these three could Submarines be home ported at. Cairns with potentially the most room, especially if once the Hydrography fleet is rationalised, the retirement of the LCH's would leave wharf space.

Anyone care to comment?

Somewhere in moreton bay would be logical, theres a large excercise area just north off Shoalwater bay, which would allow for more Amphib training with townsville only days sail away, and brisbane superbase nearby.

Newcastle berths have been allocated to commercial shipping and expansion of coal mining facilities. Wollongong has limited space and is already under commercial strain. Jervis bay was cut away years ago thanks to a 'rare' seaweed...lucky they found it otherwise could have been wiped off the map...

townsville has little available, Darwin could expand outside of town but wheres the eastern fleet if its North, and i could guarantee alot of discharges as there would be little facilities for 4,000 defence families to live in town.

Melbourne is too far south but could be an 'extreme' option if booted out of melbourne. would increase training oppurtunites for Cerberus to utilise, and allow fleet units more DC training with the expanding training facility.

Cairns is unsuitable in general, as there will be larger ships then whats in the fleet now. Even with the hydro shrinking, the planned Armidale replacement is scoped as a OPV, so larger ships as well as LCH looking at replacements.

Always option to rebuy Cockatoo island, make a central base in the middle of the harbour, although costs of operating regular ferrys to the wharf would be troublesome.

How about we just stick with FBE and if they have a problem with that, then frak them! over the noise complaints when ships are running at min. power. the more they make, then the better for their case against the navy. trying to make it like Luna park all over again.

 

[riksavage]

Somewhere in moreton bay would be logical, theres a large excercise area just north off Shoalwater bay, which would allow for more Amphib training with townsville only days sail away, and brisbane superbase nearby.

Newcastle berths have been allocated to commercial shipping and expansion of coal mining facilities. Wollongong has limited space and is already under commercial strain. Jervis bay was cut away years ago thanks to a 'rare' seaweed...lucky they found it otherwise could have been wiped off the map...

townsville has little available, Darwin could expand outside of town but wheres the eastern fleet if its North, and i could guarantee alot of discharges as there would be little facilities for 4,000 defence families to live in town.

Melbourne is too far south but could be an 'extreme' option if booted out of melbourne. would increase training oppurtunites for Cerberus to utilise, and allow fleet units more DC training with the expanding training facility.

Cairns is unsuitable in general, as there will be larger ships then whats in the fleet now. Even with the hydro shrinking, the planned Armidale replacement is scoped as a OPV, so larger ships as well as LCH looking at replacements.

Always option to rebuy Cockatoo island, make a central base in the middle of the harbour, although costs of operating regular ferrys to the wharf would be troublesome.

How about we just stick with FBE and if they have a problem with that, then frak them! over the noise complaints when ships are running at min. power. the more they make, then the better for their case against the navy. trying to make it like Luna park all over again.

Darwin for strategic reasons might be sound. There are massive Oil & Gas projects planned for the area. Having a large capable ship in the area able to support helicopters / commandos might prove sensible considering the value of the offshore projects in question. Would provide an excellent floating base for maritime counter terrorist exercises / operations until the Canberra's arrive.

 

[gf0012-aust]

If it happens it will be east, not north

 

[Abraham Gubler]

If it happens it will be east, not north

Sub Base East will have to be in Sydney. Modern submarines are designed to sail underwater and extensive surface sailing can actually cause problems with the propeller. Brisbane/Moreton Bay basing requires a very long surface sail to get to water deep enough to dive in. Darwin is surrounded by shallow water for hundreds of kilometresh, deep enough to dive but not for full training cycles. Sydney has a short transit to deep water.

Obviously the lack of space since Platypus was closed down is a problem. Cockatoo Island is in the hands of the heritage people and they are all powerful. Perhaps a likely option would be some space around Penguin or Waterhen? Or all the Anzacs could be based in FBW consolidating their support and leaving FBE for the AWDs, LHDs and half of the submarines. Skimmer crews would still have wide options for career development with the AWDs, support ships and SEA 1180 ships.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Sub Base East will have to be in Sydney. Modern submarines are designed to sail underwater and extensive surface sailing can actually cause problems with the propeller. Brisbane/Moreton Bay basing requires a very long surface sail to get to water deep enough to dive in. Darwin is surrounded by shallow water for hundreds of kilometresh, deep enough to dive but not for full training cycles. Sydney has a short transit to deep water.

Obviously the lack of space since Platypus was closed down is a problem. Cockatoo Island is in the hands of the heritage people and they are all powerful. Perhaps a likely option would be some space around Penguin or Waterhen? Or all the Anzacs could be based in FBW consolidating their support and leaving FBE for the AWDs, LHDs and half of the submarines. Skimmer crews would still have wide options for career development with the AWDs, support ships and SEA 1180 ships.

ah yoda, wise words speak you must....

 

[RubiconNZ]

Waterhen does look promising, especially if the Mine Warfare fleet is combined with the new patrol vessel, leaves a big empty dock, as I find it difficult to believe the would station patrol vessels in Sydney for a regular basis.

But the consolidation of the ANZAC's is an interesting scenario indeed. It would certainly free up mooring space, while most likely adding to or at least equalising the all important effiencies, that are so highly desired.

Thanks everyone for the responses by the way, somethings you just can't work out as a arm chair defence enthusiast

 

[Volkodav]

Waterhen does look promising, especially if the Mine Warfare fleet is combined with the new patrol vessel, leaves a big empty dock, as I find it difficult to believe the would station patrol vessels in Sydney for a regular basis.

But the consolidation of the ANZAC's is an interesting scenario indeed. It would certainly free up mooring space, while most likely adding to or at least equalising the all important effiencies, that are so highly desired.

Thanks everyone for the responses by the way, somethings you just can't work out as a arm chair defence enthusiast

Something that seems to be forgotten is that retention of submarine crews has always been a problem even in the Oberon days at Platypus. Talk to an old submariner and they will tell you that pressganging sailors on shore assignment to get a boat to sea was a common occurance. They could kiss their wife good by in the morning expecting to be home for dinner and end up being out for three months.

 

[Seaforth]

Something that seems to be forgotten is that retention of submarine crews has always been a problem even in the Oberon days at Platypus. Talk to an old submariner and they will tell you that pressganging sailors on shore assignment to get a boat to sea was a common occurance. They could kiss their wife good by in the morning expecting to be home for dinner and end up being out for three months.

I can't help but think that 12 subs is la la land.

If we're going to spend the money, much better with fewer subs and a (QE) carrier instead. Otherwise why spend the money at all.

A carrier, even one with RAAF Super Hornets and helos, would be far more useful and versatile than a larger number of submarines.

OK you can all flame me now ...

 

[LancasterBomber]

I can't help but think that 12 subs is la la land.

If we're going to spend the money, much better with fewer subs and a (QE) carrier instead. Otherwise why spend the money at all.

A carrier, even one with RAAF Super Hornets and helos, would be far more useful and versatile than a larger number of submarines.

OK you can all flame me now ...

You aren't going to get 'flamed'. Everyone is allowed an opinion in this world.

But I can confirm to you that you do not have any idea what you are talking about.

 

[LancasterBomber]

If it happens it will be east, not north

It wont happen anytime soon IMO.

Obviously I would like to achieve it at some point in the future but not this decade.

I dont want to be juggling this issue this decade. Its too complex and requires a lot of careful planning on our behalf. (Yes I know how 'simple' defence issues appear to the armchair bridage....and skimmers...)

***edit*** a division of management, training and basing facilities adds a level of organisational complexity we just dont need right now.

It is better we consolidate and focus on driving through and meeting our responsibilities to the SEA1000 platform as parent Navy.

Once we bed down the design and understand its direction, capabilities and maintenance requirements then I can look at EAST/WEST split basing in a meaningful manner.

We wont be seeing the 7th sausage until well into 2020s....one thing at a time hey.

The intention is there and if we can keep the space in Sydney open by all means we should but the planning and implementation can wait until the end of this decade IMO.

Right now we are about bedding down our revised organisational structures/management, consolidating our personnel and training and *other stuff*.

The last thing we need right now is a diversion of focus.

 

[SASWanabe]

this might be a dumb question but what does everyone think of RFA Fort George?

suitable replacement for Sirius/Success? with the LHDs coming in a couple years would it not be a good idea to consider a big combined Wet+Dry stores vessel?

 

[Sea Toby]

this might be a dumb question but what does everyone think of RFA Fort George?

suitable replacement for Sirius/Success? with the LHDs coming in a couple years would it not be a good idea to consider a big combined Wet+Dry stores vessel?

I would say no... Australia's replenishment ships, Success and Sirius, are large enough to support peace time operations for the RAN to Rimpac, Persian Gulf, and show the flag voyages to South Korea and Japan, not to mention the USA and the UK... They are more than sufficient supporting a few ships of a task force...

In a wartime situation, ships taken up from trade, say another oiler and or container ship will easily handle whatever task force Australia deploys... Probably one of the reasons why Australia keeps replenishment ships during peacetime is for maintaining replenishment at sea skills...

Of course, if Australia bought one of the QE carriers, then Australia would most likely need to buy a larger replenishment ship... But that isn't likely...

 

[spoz]

Perhaps a likely option would be some space around Penguin or Waterhen?
.

And for those who remember back far enough to the days BP (Before Plats) the RN boats were based at Penguin. OK, they were Ts and it could occasionally be a bit uncomfortable, but it lasted for about 15 years. I imagine there would be a need for some wharf upgrades to accomodate Collins and their successors, which in turn might cause some problems with the locals and their views, but it's not as if Penguin is being used for much else!

 

[Todjaeger]

I would say no... Australia's replenishment ships, Success and Sirius, are large enough to support peace time operations for the RAN to Rimpac, Persian Gulf, and show the flag voyages to South Korea and Japan, not to mention the USA and the UK... They are more than sufficient supporting a few ships of a task force...

In a wartime situation, ships taken up from trade, say another oiler and or container ship will easily handle whatever task force Australia deploys... Probably one of the reasons why Australia keeps replenishment ships during peacetime is for maintaining replenishment at sea skills...

Of course, if Australia bought one of the QE carriers, then Australia would most likely need to buy a larger replenishment ship... But that isn't likely...

I could be mistaken, but there might not be very many Aussie-flagged STUFT available which could be tasked for RAS and fleet oiler roles. How many oilers/tankers are in the Australian merchant marine at present? Others would be better positioned to know, but I believe there are just a few such vessels, and those are operating to meet domestic needs.

Is STUFT applicable to Aussie-owned vessels which are registered and fly the flags of other nations?

-Cheers

 

[RubiconNZ]

I could be mistaken, but there might not be very many Aussie-flagged STUFT available which could be tasked for RAS and fleet oiler roles. How many oilers/tankers are in the Australian merchant marine at present? Others would be better positioned to know, but I believe there are just a few such vessels, and those are operating to meet domestic needs.

-Cheers

Well the CIA world factbook gives the following on the merchant marine:
Merchant marine:
By type: bulk carrier 10, cargo 8, liquefied gas 4, passenger 6, passenger/cargo 6, petroleum tanker 6, roll on/roll off 5

Foreign-owned: 20 (Canada 7, Germany 2, Netherlands 1, Norway 1, Singapore 2, UK 5, US 2)

Registered in other countries: 29 (Dominica 1, Fiji 2, Liberia 2, Marshall Islands 1, Netherlands 1, NZ 1, Panama 5, Singapore 11, Tonga 1, UK 1, US 1, Vanuatu 2) (2010)

Unfortunately the foreign registered ships aren't listed by type nor tonnage, well at least its a number The Wiki table is based on the CIA factbook information but puts it in a straight forward table, I certainly was unaware of Japan holding the worlds largest merchant navy in number of ships.
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