Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Aussie Digger]

I'm assuming that the OCV's would get something smaller, such as the Wildcat rather then the NFH 90's or MH-60R's or the frigates though.

The only possibility for something other than the naval maritime helo in future years, might be: A) A VTOL capable UAV or perhaps the training/LUH helicopter (maybe) to be ordered under AIR-9000.

If a light utility helo is ordered (something like the Eurocopter EC-635 or Bell 429 etc) this together with a maritime warfare capable UAV might be the best we could expect on the OCV's.

I strongly doubt the budget would stretch to another 12-16 full-on maritime warfare helos and doubt the need anyway. A combination of the above two, should fill a "lower level" role adequately.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I don't think we are going to deploy OCV with full sized naval helicopters all the time.

But if you think of the OCV mission it might make sense to deploy one with a NFH/MH at certain times. As a ASW platform, as a anti-piracy platform, some types of EEC patrols, SAS insertion/extraction, certain rescues etc. While VTOL UAV's are going to be extremely useful and are most likely going to be frequently used by the OCV's they won't do all the tricks.

But there is no urgency to purchase airframes for these non-existant ships just yet. I would hope that where ever possible both the OCV's and the naval helicopters would be operationally compatable with each other.

These OCV's would become much more capable and valuable if they could operate these helicopters. The major benifit over a specialised mine hunter/patrol boat.

 

[winnyfield]

But there is no urgency to purchase airframes for these non-existant ships just yet. I would hope that where ever possible both the OCV's and the naval helicopters would be operationally compatable with each other.
.

That's how Sea Sprite got started

 

[PeterM]

I
But there is no urgency to purchase airframes for these non-existant ships just yet. I would hope that where ever possible both the OCV's and the naval helicopters would be operationally compatable with each other.

That is true on the surface, but at the same time, the OCVs are planned to start entering service in 2019. Considering the considerable lead time for the procurement of air assets (around 5 years for the maritime helicopters), planning for any air component for the OCVs should be taking place around 2014-2015 (around the time the maritime helicopter enters service.

Planning for any air assets to operate from the OCV falls within the scope of the Defence White Paper and also the recent Defence Capability Plan.

I am a little concerned that the air component to operate off the OCV will be 'borrowed' from those operating from the AWDs, Frigates and Amphibious ships..

Perhaps the integration of UAVs such as firescout for the AWD and ANZAC replacements can free up NFH-90/ MH60R for use on the OCV, but I am sceptical.

 

[hairyman]

Of the 11 or 12 AWD's and Frigates. some are always going to be going through updates and maintenance. So one or two helicopters will always be available for the Corvettes. If the RAN upped their order for Naval choppers by 3 or 4 that should be sufficient for the Corvettes surely, as not all would require helicopters to complete their duties.

I would like to see us get 4 -6 additional corvettes, fitted out for Anti-submarine patrol and fleet escort. This would increase the strength of the RAN substantially.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Out of interest in Exercise Talisman Sabre over the past couple of weeks, it can be clearly seen that HMAS Manoora and Kanimbla have now received their 25mm Typhoon "Ship Self Defence Systems", which are mounted midways along the boats on the port and starboard sides, high up on the superstructure.

Examples can be seen on HMAS Manoora here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/ts09/gallery/20090722c/20090715ran8116382_016.jpg

Here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/ts09/gallery/20090722c/20090715ran8484353_039.jpg

and here if one squints a bit:

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/ts09/gallery/20090722c/20090715ran8484353_056.jpg


Now we need to see HMAS Tobruk to see if she has got her new guns...

 

[StingrayOZ]

I would like to see us get 4 -6 additional corvettes, fitted out for Anti-submarine patrol and fleet escort. This would increase the strength of the RAN substantially.

We are already getting 20 ~2,000t OCV which are essentially corvettes most likely simular to the US LCS range of ships. These could be fitted with 30-76mm gun, netfire missiles, searam/phalanx mounts, UAV, UUV's (possibly even harpoons) in a combination to function as a ASW unit or a fleet escort unit etc. Are you suggesting we need 4-6 more or 4-6 of a specific new class of ship? I would think 20 OCV's would be a pretty good number. We could have as many 50 truely blue water, armed vessels by ~2030. (4 AWD, 8 ANZACII, 12 Collins II, 20 OCV, 2 LHD (essm)

As a anti submarine ship a OCV operating a MH-60R with a dipping sonar, a UAV like firescout, several UUV's plus on board sensors I would imagine be a pretty good platform. The fact we will have decent numbers and able to convert/refit/upgrade as per threats in the region change (additional submarines purchase or operating near our waters) is a good thing.

 

[Beagle]

Out of interest in Exercise Talisman Sabre over the past couple of weeks, it can be clearly seen that HMAS Manoora and Kanimbla have now received their 25mm Typhoon "Ship Self Defence Systems", which are mounted midways along the boats on the port and starboard sides, high up on the superstructure.

Examples can be seen on HMAS Manoora here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/ts09/gallery/20090722c/20090715ran8116382_016.jpg

Here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/ts09/gallery/20090722c/20090715ran8484353_039.jpg

and here if one squints a bit:

http://www.defence.gov.au/opEx/exercises/ts09/gallery/20090722c/20090715ran8484353_056.jpg


Now we need to see HMAS Tobruk to see if she has got her new guns...

Tobruk's got them already, mounted up forward

 

[battlensign]

We are already getting 20 ~2,000t OCV which are essentially corvettes most likely simular to the US LCS range of ships. These could be fitted with 30-76mm gun, netfire missiles, searam/phalanx mounts, UAV, UUV's (possibly even harpoons) in a combination to function as a ASW unit or a fleet escort unit etc. Are you suggesting we need 4-6 more or 4-6 of a specific new class of ship? I would think 20 OCV's would be a pretty good number. We could have as many 50 truely blue water, armed vessels by ~2030. (4 AWD, 8 ANZACII, 12 Collins II, 20 OCV, 2 LHD (essm)

As a anti submarine ship a OCV operating a MH-60R with a dipping sonar, a UAV like firescout, several UUV's plus on board sensors I would imagine be a pretty good platform. The fact we will have decent numbers and able to convert/refit/upgrade as per threats in the region change (additional submarines purchase or operating near our waters) is a good thing.

I wouldn't get your hopes up on the OCVs. The numbers will be fudged and my suspicions are, much like many other people, that the intention was the design the requirement around the AUSTAL MRVs. Not much of a blue water vessel but a useful Armidale replacement.

Brett.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I wouldn't get your hopes up on the OCVs. The numbers will be fudged and my suspicions are, much like many other people, that the intention was the design the requirement around the AUSTAL MRVs. Not much of a blue water vessel but a useful Armidale replacement.

Brett.

MRV's look like a handy LCS esk platform to me, quite capable of ASW work. We could base them on teh LCS concept, 57mm up front, mission module system, NH-90 or UAV, very handy peice of kit. I don't see why an MRV based platform could not take on blue water roles.

If we do in fact get 20x MRV's I for one would be stoked.

 

[hairyman]

I am not so worried about the numbers as the weapons fit. If they are going to be used mainly as Armidale replacements, patrol boats, they will probably not be much better armed than the Armidales. That is why I would like to see some of them fitted out like true modern corvettes, such as the Visby. They could then assist with escort duties and ASW patrol work etc. If they all receive the full weapons kit all the better, but I would not hold my breath on that one.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I wouldn't get your hopes up on the OCVs. The numbers will be fudged and my suspicions are, much like many other people, that the intention was the design the requirement around the AUSTAL MRVs. Not much of a blue water vessel but a useful Armidale replacement..

Austal has changed its site, but the origional MRV Austal had in mind was about 1000t (simular to the multirole corvette). the WP 2,000t puts it right in the LCS range, which I think was a bit more than most people were expecting. Austal would be a front runner with its LCS experience(having built the Armidales as well).

While these won't be perfect blue water ships, they will certainly be capable of blue water activities with greater size, equipment and range while still being excellent ships for non-open water operations.

I think we will see the OCV end up looking fairly simular to the LCS. However, I would imagine systems like 50 cal, CIWS (Phalax/Searam), mini typhoons/typhoon, some sort of small missile system (RBS-70/starstreak based?) or possibly up to harpoons etc might be shared from a pool. This pool can be enlarged fairly easily given 6-12 months notice.

The OCV will end up replacing almost everything. Armidales are an obivious replacement (14 boats), Huon class (6) and possibly survey vessels Paluma class (4) boats and leeuwin class (2) boats.

But there are a great deal of not very old boats. I'm not sure what they are planning to do, sell them off (NZ, Indonesia, Malaysia, Arab states), give some away (to say pacific island nations to strengthen their "navies", PNG this has become a increasingly important issue as they are unable to secure their EEZ), deactivate or keep them as training vessels to increase numbers of RAN personel.

20 OCV's would be totally impressive. We would then have enough vessels to really operate a fleet and a task force operations on our lonesome.

 

[StevoJH]

Could the Armidales go to pacific nations to replace their current 'gift' patrol boats? Or are they a bit too high tech?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I am not so worried about the numbers as the weapons fit. If they are going to be used mainly as Armidale replacements, patrol boats, they will probably not be much better armed than the Armidales. That is why I would like to see some of them fitted out like true modern corvettes, such as the Visby. They could then assist with escort duties and ASW patrol work etc. If they all receive the full weapons kit all the better, but I would not hold my breath on that one.

As stingray pointed out they are intended to replace a fair few types of ships, which means mission module concept. You just use the deck space for container sized mission modules, and one of those modules will definitely be a mine hunter module, the other an oceanographic module. Considering there will be a comparable module already manufactured for the LCS an ASW capability would be a no brainier. A ship of that size could easily act as an escort in a task force. The only real thing its missing at the moment is some sort of point air defense.

@ Stingray.

I doubt Harpoon would be viable on the MRV platform. 57mm would probably be more useful.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Could the Armidales go to pacific nations to replace their current 'gift' patrol boats? Or are they a bit too high tech?

Sure, remember "Hi Tech" is a subjective term. The Oberons were high tech at one point. Anyway the maintenance and through life support would be done by Australian companies. Indonesia would be a great home for the Amridales, anti piracy helps us all and it further ties Indonesia to Australia.

 

[hairyman]

"
I think we will see the OCV end up looking fairly simular to the LCS."

I prefer the appearance of the original triman from Austal which was chunkier and had a savage appearance. Anyone else remember the design I am talking about? The outer hulls were open and rounded, and not smoothed off and joined to the central hull like the LCS.
Its hard to describe.

 

[StevoJH]

I hope they are joined the central hull, it would be in trouble if they werent.

 

[hairyman]

Well filled in then, like the LCS, as against open in the design I am referring to.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Austal has changed its site, but the origional MRV Austal had in mind was about 1000t (simular to the multirole corvette). the WP 2,000t puts it right in the LCS range, which I think was a bit more than most people were expecting. Austal would be a front runner with its LCS experience(having built the Armidales as well).

Displacement of an all-aluminum ship is not to be benchmarked with a steel hulled ship. Austal have strongly resisted widely publishing displacement figures because people make the benchmark and assume the aluminum ship is much smaller. A 100 tonne aluminum ship has about the same usable internal volume as a 200 tonne steel ship and so on.

For the SEA 1180 ship the MRV 86 would probably be what Austal would offer. Though requirement definition is still ongoing and should be more concrete by next year.

The way these ships operate as combat platforms will be very different to legacy ships. While the SEA 1180 will probably just have a Typhoon system for armament it will have a mission deck and flight deck able to support a number of UUVs, USVs and UAVs. These vehicles will be the platforms finding and engaging the enemy with likely missile and torpedo armament.

In short they will be like an aircraft carrier where actual onboard weapon systems mean very little compared to what vehicles are based onboard.

 

[icelord]

had a chance to cross deck to USS McCampbell over TS09. Very glad we didn't go with it. Although it is massive, and i mean massive inside(especially over our FFG) it seemed to be all american, massive, over priced, over powered and damn annoying to get around. If i had to go through 3 airlocks just to get to the damn bridge everyday i'd flip. Plus their strike didn't like it when staring at aft VLS(aft and fwd ppl, 2 VLS Areas!) and she told how it made her american to look at, i let slip that one word came to mind, Overkill!
Plus the yanks don't have a Rec space in their Jnrs messes, without a rec space, its has no soul inside.