Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Goknub

Active Member
There really needs to be more info on what the OCV is designed to be.

To me it so far sounds like the ultimate politicians ship: Large pretty ships that make for great PR back-drops but without the huge costs of real warships.

With 20 vessels it would seem a Armidale replacement, at least in part but why a 2000t Patrol Ship to replace a 300t Patrol Boat. That extra cost will mean fewer Frigates, aircraft, tanks etc.

If they are ment to be warships then only a fraction are likely to be armed as such and again we end up with small Corvettes in place of larger ships with a corresponding reduction in combat capabilities.

And finally theres the "Modular" thing everyone seems in love with, come on this is just the "built for but not with" disaster with a fancier name.

I can see the RAN reduced to 10 major surface ships (AWD + ANZAC 2) with a couple of half-assed OCVs to make it look good on paper.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't see the RAN being so watered down. Of our three services it the one that has less choice in when she fights and directly secures Australian territory. Given the number of recent political events that have happend around the RAN (children overboard, drug smuggling, illegal immigration, disputes over Australian marine resources etc) I think any reductions of major units would be highly risky politically.

While I don't think we will get everything we have dreamed of I think we will get 3 (hopefully 4) AWD and 8 Anzac replacements. These will make up our core surface units.

I think the OCV is a bit of fluff and numbers need to be finalised. Unlike the major units which have been in the planning for a long time, the OCV is a bit of a new concept. I think its basically written for Austal, but it would still be worthwhile looking at other designs as well.
 

PeterM

Active Member
There really needs to be more info on what the OCV is designed to be.

To me it so far sounds like the ultimate politicians ship: Large pretty ships that make for great PR back-drops but without the huge costs of real warships.

With 20 vessels it would seem a Armidale replacement, at least in part but why a 2000t Patrol Ship to replace a 300t Patrol Boat. That extra cost will mean fewer Frigates, aircraft, tanks etc.

If they are ment to be warships then only a fraction are likely to be armed as such and again we end up with small Corvettes in place of larger ships with a corresponding reduction in combat capabilities.

And finally theres the "Modular" thing everyone seems in love with, come on this is just the "built for but not with" disaster with a fancier name.

I can see the RAN reduced to 10 major surface ships (AWD + ANZAC 2) with a couple of half-assed OCVs to make it look good on paper.
I imagine the BAM would be a strong contender for the OCV, other options could include the French Gowind class, Italian Combatante class, German Brauschweig class and various Austal designs (among others). But this project is still some ways (towards the end on next decade with the success replacement

As far as size, steel is realtively minor cost in the big scheme of things

also the Armidales are aluminiun hulls, as such they are alot lighter then steel equivalents, which makes displacement comparrisons for size/capability impossible.


I am more curious to see what is happening with the LCH replacements and the 3rd Amphibious ship and the maritime helicopter procurement, decisions/shortlisting on all of these should not be too far away.
 

PeterM

Active Member
The key thing to remember is the 20 OCV is replacing

14 Armidale class Patrol Boats
6 Huon class Minehunters
2 Leewin class Survey Vessels
4 Survey Motor Launch

that is pretty much maintaining the same levels of ships we currently have. They certainly will be more capable, all having border security capability and makes the navy alot more flexible with simplified support and maintenance.
 

JokerJason

New Member
Sorry if I have missed this on previous pages, but I'd like to know.

Is it just the new submarines being equipped with Tomahawk land attack missiles or are the new frigates also being equipped with them (the replacement for the ANZAC Class Frigates)?

Thanks,
 

PeterM

Active Member
Sorry if I have missed this on previous pages, but I'd like to know.

Is it just the new submarines being equipped with Tomahawk land attack missiles or are the new frigates also being equipped with them (the replacement for the ANZAC Class Frigates)?

Thanks,

Land Attack Cruise Missiles (almost certainly tomahawks) are being equipped on the Collins replacement submarines and the Hobart class AWDs (not sure about the Anzac replacements, they may be an option).

Consideriong the in service dates of these platforms, the Hobart class should be the first to be operational with Tomahawk capability.
 

JokerJason

New Member
Land Attack Cruise Missiles (almost certainly tomahawks) are being equipped on the Collins replacement submarines and the Hobart class AWDs (not sure about the Anzac replacements, they may be an option).

Consideriong the in service dates of these platforms, the Hobart class should be the first to be operational with Tomahawk capability.
Excellent news, I wasn't aware the new AWDs were getting LACM (Tomahawk), I thought they were only being equipped to fight air threats.

This is good news, I have always felt quite disappointed we didn't invest in more naval land attack capability. It would make sense to have LACM in the eight new 'heavy' frigates, wouldn't it? Given that a lot of the new AWD's role will be protection for the Canberra class, if I remember correctly, so would be smart to have some frigates capable of 'branching off' to attack land targets.

Currently going through recruitment process for the RAN, hate that they draw everything out but it'll all be worth it.
 

PeterM

Active Member
from this year's Defence white paper

9.73 Currently, Australia relies primarily on its air combat capability for strategic strike. In the future, the stealthy JSF, employing a range of precision weapons and supported by AEW&C and air-to-air refuelling aircraft, will deliver a potent and survivable strike capability. This builds on the enhanced strike capability provided by the upgraded F/A-18A/B fleet, which will employ the Joint Air to Surface Standoff Munition (JASSM) with a range of over 200 nautical miles. Special Forces could also carry out strike missions, principally by providing targeting information but potentially also by direct means.

9.74 The Government places a priority on broadening our strategic strike options, which will occur through the acquisition of maritime-based land-attack cruise missiles. These missiles will be fitted to the AWD, Future Frigate and Future Submarine. Defence will fit the necessary control and firing systems to the AWD as an early enhancement. The incorporation of a land-attack cruise missile capability will be integral to the design and construction of the Future Frigate and Future Submarine. We will not seek to retrofit this capability to the Collins submarine fleet.

9.75 The acquisition of a maritime-based land-attack cruise missile capability for the ADF will provide the Government with additional options to conduct long-range precision strike operations against hardened, defended and difficult to access targets, while minimising the exposure of ADF platforms and personnel to attack by enemy forces. Advanced internal guidance and supporting weapon control systems in modern versions of this capability would also better enable the ADF to fulfil its obligations under the laws of armed conflict through greater accuracy and control. This long-range precision strike capability will be supported by enhanced geospatial capabilities and targeting analysis support.

9.76 Acquisition of a land-attack cruise missile capability is fully consistent with Australian treaty obligations and customary international law. It is also consistent with our long held policy of maintaining credible capabilities for the defence of Australia, and will act as a hedge against longer-term strategic uncertainty.
Looks like the ANZAC replacement will have them as well
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
There really needs to be more info on what the OCV is designed to be.

To me it so far sounds like the ultimate politicians ship: Large pretty ships that make for great PR back-drops but without the huge costs of real warships.

With 20 vessels it would seem a Armidale replacement, at least in part but why a 2000t Patrol Ship to replace a 300t Patrol Boat. That extra cost will mean fewer Frigates, aircraft, tanks etc.

If they are ment to be warships then only a fraction are likely to be armed as such and again we end up with small Corvettes in place of larger ships with a corresponding reduction in combat capabilities.

And finally theres the "Modular" thing everyone seems in love with, come on this is just the "built for but not with" disaster with a fancier name.

I can see the RAN reduced to 10 major surface ships (AWD + ANZAC 2) with a couple of half-assed OCVs to make it look good on paper.
As I understand it, the idea is that the ~20 OCV proposed will be replacing the Armidale PB, Huon MHC and some/all the survey vessels.

While I do have some reservations about a 2,000 ton, presumably steel-hulled vessel replacing a seamless, composite-hulled MHC for MCM work... The idea does have some merit.

IMO if one makes an honest appraisal of the Armidale PB, the design should not have been selected by the RAN for service. Again, IMO the design is a good one, delivering what the RAN/government asked for, but it is not so suitable if one where to consider what the RAN needs.

Essentially the Armidales were to replace the worn out Fremantle PB's which patrolled the northern waters of Australia. From what I understand, this largely consisted of fishery patrols, intercepts of suspicious vessels, refugee boats, etc. When the replacement was needed, the specifications seemed to be just what was needed to continue doing what the Fremantles had been. Unfortunately, the design chosen seems too specialized to be used elsewhere by the RAN.

The Armidale is a ~60 m, aluminum-hulled vessel of ~270 tons, capable of patrolling something like 3,000 n miles and being at sea for 42 days. Where it seems to run into problems is that being so small and lightweight, the vessel is not really suited to 'blue water' operations or transits. This means that for patrols in the Indian or Southern Oceans, the Armidale is really not suitable far from land. In addition, the vessel mounts a 25 mm Bushmaster, and is not really capable of being armed with greater weaponry. This means the vessel is of limited use in any sort of anti-shipping role. Lastly, there had been reports that due to possible problems maintaining the aluminum hulls, the cost of maintenance and ops would likely climb significantly once the Armidales had been in service a decade.

I imagine that the 2,000 ton OCV would be something like a robust OPV, primarily tasked with patrolling, but due to size and fitout, able to do ocean-going, as well as EEZ patrolling along Australia's northern coast. By including modular connections, be they for Stanflex containers, the systems for LCS, etc it potentially gives the RAN greater options in terms of operational use of the OCV.

This IMO is quite different from being 'fitted for, but not with..." Use of a modular container system allows for a smaller number of different hulls/vessels, yet still retaining the ability to carry out some special or specific operations on an as needed basis. Additionally, changing fit-out in a 'fitted for, but not with" type vessel usually requires an upgrade plan, significant yard of dock time, and then ship workup following the installation of the upgrade. A modular system like Stanflex is designed to be changed dockside, with the changeover being completed within something like 48 hours, before the vessel can be redeployed with the new fitout.

To me, that sounds a bit different.

-Cheers
 

PeterM

Active Member
looking at the white paper, there is a reasonable amount of information on what is planned for the OCV.


Offshore Combatant Vessels

9.19 The Navy currently operates four relatively small fleets of vessels for important tasks such as offshore resource protection, border security, hydrographic and oceanographic environmental assessments and clearing sea mines. This significantly increases whole-of-life ownership costs and personnel overheads. Smaller vessels also have less seagoing capacity and a reduced scope for installing more capable sensor or weapons systems over time.

9.20 The Government has therefore decided that Defence will develop proposals to rationalise the Navy's patrol boat, mine counter measures, hydrographic and oceanographic forces into a single modular multirole class of around 20 Offshore Combatant Vessels combining four existing classes of vessels. This has the potential to provide significant operational efficiencies and potential savings. The new vessels will be larger than the current Armidale class patrol boats, with an anticipated displacement of up to 2,000 tonnes.

9.21 This concept relies on the use of modular unmanned underwater systems for both mine countermeasures and hydrographic tasks. These systems are envisaged to be containerised and portable modules capable of being used in any port or loaded onto any of the Offshore Combatant Vessels or other suitable vessels.

9.22 The future Offshore Combatant Vessel will be able to undertake offshore and littoral warfighting roles, border protection tasks, long-range counter-terrorism and counter-piracy operations, support to special forces, and missions in support of security and stability in the immediate neighbourhood. Defence will examine the potential for these new ships to embark a helicopter or UAV, to allow a surge in surveillance and response capabilities without the need to deploy additional ships. This increased capability will also ensure that major surface combatants are free for more demanding operations.
What we get is:
  • alot more and longer range patrol capability
  • a superior weapon suite over the armidale
  • alot more mine warfare capability
  • alot more survey capability
  • ability to operate in combat zones
  • ability to operate helicopters and UAVs (a signigficant upgrade)
  • ability to upgrade and maintain systems/modules ashore whilst ships are on deployment
  • the flexibility to configure and deploy vessels as needed to suit specific operational needs
  • cheaper support and maintenance
  • ability to do some of the low intensity duties currently done by Anzacs
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Doubtless Navantia is honing its proposals. There's the BAM - a little large at 2500 tons, but selected by the Armada for exactly the same range of duties as the proposed OCV. They also have the 1500 ton BVL (4 building for the Venezuelan coast guard), & doubtless could offer something in between.
 

PeterM

Active Member
What is up with the Collins subs?

from Heavy metal scare in Australian subs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Work stops on 'contaminated' Navy submarines
By National security correspondent Matt Brown

The Royal Australian Navy has banned maintenance on Australia's submarine fleet, warning workers they could be contaminated by the heavy metal cadmium.

Four of the Navy's fleet of six Collins Class Submarines subs are being tested. The Navy says just two are "operational', and they will be tested as soon as possible.

Delays in maintenance threaten the Navy's goal of always having two subs ready for action.

Maintenance workers at the Australian Submarine Corporation (ASC) raised the alarm when they were asked to put signs in the subs to identify parts which had been built into the subs as part of a weapons upgrade using standard US Navy equipment.

After staff raised concerns, ASC undertook initial swab testing which confirmed the presence of cadmium, which is used to coat electrical fittings.

The Navy says cadmium has always been used in Collins class submarine electrical components to minimise corrosion.

Further testing has been undertaken on HMAS Dechaineux, Collins, Rankin and Sheean to determine the levels of cadmium present, with results currently being assessed.

The Federal Government has ordered an urgent investigation into the isue.
It seems there is considerable discrepancies between the ASC and USN on what level of Cadmium is considered safe. It seems the Aust govt have just gone with the USN recommendations/systems. Very likely thy simply assumed becasue it was passed at safe by the US, it meets all our standards as well.

The USN have very different levels of what is deemed safe. For example, on Blue Ridge there is a basketball court in very close proximity to the ships very considerable Antenna farm despite what most ADF people would consider dangerously high levels of electromagnetic radiation. From an external point of view, the US seem to place a lower priority on the long term health implications of their military than smaller nations military.

The Aust governement and ADF need to do their homework.

This actually makes me feel more comfortable with using Navantia for our ship building.
 
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AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The USN have very different levels of what is deemed safe. For example, on Blue Ridge there is a basketball court in very close proximity to the ships very considerable Antenna farm despite what most ADF people would consider dangerously high levels of electromagnetic radiation. From an external point of view, the US seem to place a lower priority on the long term health implications of their military than smaller nations military.

The Aust governement and ADF need to do their homework.

This actually makes me feel more comfortable with using Navantia for our ship building.
1) The Blue Ridge's basketball hoop is only supposed to be used in port when the comms gear is not active.

2) The USN has an effective HERP (Hazardous Electromagnetic Radiation to Personnel) program.
Naval Safety Center

From someone with an internal point of view your external views are wrong.
 

PeterM

Active Member
1) The Blue Ridge's basketball hoop is only supposed to be used in port when the comms gear is not active.

2) The USN has an effective HERP (Hazardous Electromagnetic Radiation to Personnel) program.
Naval Safety Center

From someone with an internal point of view your external views are wrong.
I am happy to be corrected by people with more detailed knowledge and admit when I am wrong

regardless suddenly finding excessive levels of heavy metals in the coliins class is a concern
 

Sea Toby

New Member
looking at the white paper, there is a reasonable amount of information on what is planned for the OCV.




What we get is:
  • alot more and longer range patrol capability
  • a superior weapon suite over the armidale
  • alot more mine warfare capability
  • alot more survey capability
  • ability to operate in combat zones
  • ability to operate helicopters and UAVs (a signigficant upgrade)
  • ability to upgrade and maintain systems/modules ashore whilst ships are on deployment
  • the flexibility to configure and deploy vessels as needed to suit specific operational needs
  • cheaper support and maintenance
  • ability to do some of the low intensity duties currently done by Anzacs
Many navies are reviewing their small warships, now thinking in terms of a single hull doing several different duties, from patrol to oceanographic, to hydrographic, and mine countermeasures. The Irish government was taken aback when so many different ships were offered for the OPV/EPV program. One of the most interesting offers came from BMT, the Venator. A short video:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i14CeDEq-e8&feature=related]YouTube - BMT Venator ® MCM Configuration[/ame]

The same Venator firing a modular close in weapon system missile:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m81ede8b9g"]YouTube - Ship fires missile[/ame]
 
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uuname

New Member
Interesting design, and the 7000 nm range is an asset. However, I can't help but notice the tiny hanger.

It looks like it would have trouble supporting a full sized helicopter.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Interesting design, and the 7000 nm range is an asset. However, I can't help but notice the tiny hanger.

It looks like it would have trouble supporting a full sized helicopter.
Its not a full hangar. This one telescopes out. As an OPV this ship really isn't designed with ASW in mind, nor for a ASW helicopter. She is built with more of a light helicopter in mind for lilly podding, search and rescue, and vertical replenishment. The USCG and US Navy have had in the past telescoping hangars. But I am sure a hangar could be added by increasing the length of the ship a few meters. After all this is a ship designed as a minor warship, not as a replacement for a frigate or destroyer. The helicopter deck can also be used to stack containers, a small crane could be added, even small vehicles could be parked beneath the helicopter deck similar to a carport. There is plenty of space on the aft work deck for installation of a number of different systems...

Why is it when one suggests or posts minor warships or patrol ships someone always complain where the major warship systems are? A Navy needs much more than battleships. Even during WWII the US Navy operated PT boats.... McHale's Navy survives....

With some imagination one can see a hydrographic version, an oceanographic version, a diving tender version, a mine hunter version, besides a ocean patrol vessel. With different modules and switchouts, one can use the same ship for any of these missions.....

I think the key word here is flexibility.....
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Many navies are reviewing their small warships, now thinking in terms of a single hull doing several different duties, from patrol to oceanographic, to hydrographic, and mine countermeasures. The Irish government was taken aback when so many different ships were offered for the OPV/EPV program. One of the most interesting offers came from BMT, the Venator.
Interesting design. The design seems to be a type of corvette essentially, with a 57 or 76 mm fixed gun mount, and a 4-cell VLS that appearred to be quad-packed in the video. The addition of modular units to provide MCM equipment, surveying equipment, maritime security all does make it seem a useful design.

Not sure though whether it would be appropriate for what the RAN is looking for in the OCV though. Given that the design appeared to have fairly sophisticated weaponry, I would expect the shipboard electronics to be fairly robust. Given that the sensors and electronics fitout is one of the significant expenses in modern warships, I am not certain how well the Venator would do as a replacement for the Armidale PBs and/or the Huon MHCs... It largely depends on whether the RAN is looking for a warship capable of carrying out some of the roles assigned to the Armidales and Huons, or if the idea was more along the lines of a multi-role OPV that could be 'up-gunned' if needed.

A few other areas of concern is that the design might not work well in rougher waters of the Southern Ocean, being limited to a transit in Sea State 6, this might, or might not be an area of concern. Personally IMO the design would be better suited with a full heli hangar, given the distances the RAN (and possibly the RNZN...) operates in, having a heli assigned for some missions seems sensible. It would therefore seem to make sense to provide better facilities for the support of a heli if/when they are embarked. When not needed, they could be used for other purposes.

The last concern I have is really more of a pet peeve I have with modular systems. At present modular systems are in use by the Canadians (aboard their MCDV) the US (on the LCS) and the Danes (on the Absalon- and Flyvefisken-classes). However, none of the modular units/systems in use seem to be compatible with the modular systems used by other nations. This design seems to be presenting yet another format for an interchangable modular system.

Would it not make a bit more sense for the various ship and system developers to get together and agree upon a common format, architecture and set of container sizes? This would then allow the various subsystem developers to package their respective designs into the appropriately sized containers...
Sorry, /rant

-Cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Given that the design appeared to have fairly sophisticated weaponry, I would expect the shipboard electronics to be fairly robust. Given that the sensors and electronics fitout is one of the significant expenses in modern warships, I am not certain how well the Venator would do as a replacement for the Armidale PBs and/or the Huon MHCs... It largely depends on whether the RAN is looking for a warship capable of carrying out some of the roles assigned to the Armidales and Huons, or if the idea was more along the lines of a multi-role OPV that could be 'up-gunned' if needed.

-Cheers
The electronics would doubtless be to customer specification. This is being marketed to various navies as a configurable platform.
 

JokerJason

New Member
Land Attack Cruise Missiles (almost certainly tomahawks) are being equipped on the Collins replacement submarines and the Hobart class AWDs (not sure about the Anzac replacements, they may be an option).

Consideriong the in service dates of these platforms, the Hobart class should be the first to be operational with Tomahawk capability.
The Hobart class is definitely getting them though, not just 'capable' of it?

I assume it'd be in the Defence White Paper?
 
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