Spanish Air Force

[Alonso Quijano]

if you look at the F-18 fighter jets to modernize and 67 are not 81 as stated Templario, a difference of 14 F-18, these 14 F-18 upgrade will not think are going to take off in the islands canarias, this makes us suppose that Spain will buy access to more than 16 Eurofighters has an option to purchase.
there is nothing official but I do not know what everyone says ...

 

[Alonso Quijano]

Hi Alonso Quijano and thanks for posting up more information but I'm confused how does "Iran aircraft hanger slowly through etc, fit into talking about Spain's Hornet's being upgraded? Are they talking with these changes Spain's Hornet's could beat Iran's defenses or something?

Thanks

I think it is a problem of translation, only said that "going to go through the hangar"

 

[Aussie Digger]

From a couple of quick internet searches i don't believe the Spanish F/A 18A's to have been upgraded as much those belonging to some of the other users. For example i could not find evidence of them being equiped with APG-73.

For example the Australian F/A-18A's have been upgraded with the avionics of the F/A-18C and have the APG-73, among other upgrades as part of the HUG program.

According to Raytheon, the Spanish Hornets do not operate the APG-73, so presumably they are still running the original APG-65 radars?

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/apg73/index.html

Not there is anything majorly wrong with this, but it is not as capable as the APG-73, which is a developed version of this radar...

The capabilities listed in the Spanish Hornet upgrade project, have also been incorporated in Australian and Canadian Hornets, with some capabilities (such as APG-73 radar and ALR-67(v3) RWR) that do not seem to have made it onto Spain's Hornets.

Of course, running a new fleet of Eurofighters, might make such upgrades uneconomical. Australia and Canada have no other fighter to rely upon, at present...

 

[Alonso Quijano]

accurate!
Spanish all the effort is "now" in the Eurofighter which made them all believe in tranche 3.
also thought to change the radar CAPTOR eurofighter the new AESA radar CAESAR.
What also changed the radar of the F-18, "I have seen many pictures of F-18 and jockeying Eurofighters together, I imagine that if a mission a combination of the two well.

 

[Templario]

Sorry for my late responding, I've benn busy.

Well, what I wanted to say with F-18 M is that in Spanish Air Force that "M" means they're modernized, in fact in Spain those F-18's are called C-15 M
The "M" is just a Spanish nomenclature.

Yes, people here is right, our F-18's weren't equiped with the new APG-73, but they have other important upgrades.
This is what I could find, I don't think you understand Spanish so I'll try to translate them into English. The MLU was:

* New Tactical Computer TPAC with a high speed multiprocessor, 6 1553 buses along the wings, 4 digital graphic channels and new asociated software.

* New HUD

* 2 new colour multifunction screens with high definition.

* Digital tactical maps system.

* MUFC multifunction screen of frontal control.

* Digital colour camera video (for debriefings).

* CIT, Combined Interrogator and Transponder, of INDRA.

* EGI, Embed GPS and Inertial System (GPS and INS integrated) AN/ASN-172

* Filters for FM VOR/ILS inmunity

* Installation of MIDS (Firstly it was "pre-installed", but it was succesfully installed in 2009)

* Integration of AMRAAM, IRIS-T and Meteor.

* ARC-210 Have Quick II radio with anti-jamming.

* Outdoor and Indoor cockpit ilumination, compatible with night vision goggles.

* IDM, improved data modem (a low capacity data-link for text message exchanging or target image sendig without breaking radio silence)


Despite this MLU there were done other upgrades:

* "Alertador" (in English? - Radar Warning Receiver) INDRA ALR-400

* "Dispensadores" (in English? - Counter measure dispensers - flare/chaff) AN/ALE-47

* SQ-600, a precise localization system of emissions.

* ALQ-500 perturber.

* Integration of Paveway III bomb

* Integration of BPG-2000 bomb.

* Integration of Taurus missile.

* 22 "barquillas" (in English? - targetting pods) Litening II and 4 Reccelite (They will be upgraded Litening III with the IR sensor).


These upgrades were done in 67 aircrafts of 91.
I think the other 24 aircrafts have other minor upgrades, but I don't have information about it. Those 24 F-18 are in the Canary Islands.

Talking about the number of EF-2000 the 16 options haven't been rejected, so it's very possible they come. (In fact they will come, count 103 EF-200).

Cheers

 

[Templario]

I have opened a new thread of pictures about the Spanish Air Force here:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=170827#post170827


I hope you like it.

Cheers

 

[Aussie Digger]

S

Yes, people here is right, our F-18's weren't equiped with the new APG-73, but they have other important upgrades.
This is what I could find, I don't think you understand Spanish so I'll try to translate them into English. The MLU was:

Yep, they've had a pretty extensive upgrade, but without offence intended, there are other F/A-18A/B/C/D aircraft, that are of a higher specification than these.

Out of fairness, Countries like Australia, Canada and Finland, who don't operate any other fighter aircraft, understandably need a higher specification aircraft, because they don't have anything else...

Moving away from this, has there been any talk in Spain of acquiring the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in years to come, to replace F-5, F-1, F/A-18, and Harrier etc?

A dual F-35/Eurofighter Typhoon force, would be a force to be reckoned with...

 

[Alonso Quijano]

Yep, they've had a pretty extensive upgrade, but without offence intended, there are other F/A-18A/B/C/D aircraft, that are of a higher specification than these.

Out of fairness, Countries like Australia, Canada and Finland, who don't operate any other fighter aircraft, understandably need a higher specification aircraft, because they don't have anything else...

Moving away from this, has there been any talk in Spain of acquiring the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in years to come, to replace F-5, F-1, F/A-18, and Harrier etc?

A dual F-35/Eurofighter Typhoon force, would be a force to be reckoned with...

no, it appears that Spain does not think of time as the F-35.
in your day to get into Spain was offered the project but did not like the terms to be offered.
I am sure that some day buy F-35B to replace the Harriers of our aircraft carriers but for the moment nothing was said officially.

 

[Alonso Quijano]

I like Spain for the new F-15 silence.
combined with the typhoon would be a more than respectable air force ...:

 

[Feanor]

I like Spain for the new F-15 silence.
combined with the typhoon would be a more than respectable air force ...:

This would leave them awfully short on penetration capabilities. I would think that the Typhoon/JSF mix would be far more balanced. Then again personally, I think that the F-35 alone would be sufficient as the main fighter. It could be procured in larger numbers, and is by far the most advanced fighter available to spain.

 

[Alonso Quijano]

This would leave them awfully short on penetration capabilities. I would think that the Typhoon/JSF mix would be far more balanced. Then again personally, I think that the F-35 alone would be sufficient as the main fighter. It could be procured in larger numbers, and is by far the most advanced fighter available to spain.

was a joke, it just said that I like that plane.

 

[Alonso Quijano]

I found an article that talks about the hornet Spanish:

Efficiency and versatility.

In its role as interceptors, the EF-18 aircraft can use the excellent modernized missile AIM-120B / C U.S. AMRAAM medium range. The inclusion of this material, which can incorporate up to four missiles on the pylons of the aircraft subalares, along with the installation of an interrogation signal and a transponder, has revolutionized the air-air capability of the device. Moreover, short range missiles and AIM-9JULI L (modernized) Sidewinder, were soon joined by the IRIS-T, the fourth generation, and integrated in the Eurofighter.
The Hornet features make reconnaissance aircraft, with the pod of the Israeli firm Rafael RECCELITE that thanks to the MLU can be placed at the focal point of clamping, which increases their effectiveness.

Regarding the attack on the ground, their capacity for using the Maverick missile and a wide range of pumps and smooth braking, has joined in the upgraded machine as the total capacity FBL (Fighter Bomber Laser/Caza- Laser bomber). This qualification, awarded by NATO, allowing the Hornet attack missions with bombs guided by laser in any condition-teorológica me, whether day or night. For these vital tasks, the tool is the laser designators FLIR-LTD/R-LST Rafael Litening II, third generation. Antiradar missiles AGM-88 HARM, and secondarily on the Maverick, trained to destroy the radars and other systems of enemy air defenses.

Have also incorporated new weapons systems for laser-guided equipment, such as the U.S. smart bombs GBU-24 Paveway III, who joined the direction of the laser-guided by GPS, and Spanish busters bombs GPGs-2000 manufactured by EXPAL (Explosives Alavesa), used for guiding the laser head to the GBU-24, manufactured by U.S. company Raytheon. With regard to the missions have antiship missiles AGM-84D Harpoon-1.

As integrated-type cruise missile Taurus KEDP-350, and with them the possibility to launch stand-off, or out of reach of enemy defenses, thanks to its range of over 350 km, electronic system, self-defense and stealth capabilities, the versatility of the EF-18 is absolute.

Nobody knew, when they were finally selected and purchased the equipment in the early eighties, in the midst of the controversy and hostility to the wise decision of some politicians and media, which could achieve this efficiency and versatility. One of the main "guilty" of this important operational life, which led to even participate in attack missions during the conflict in former Yugoslavia, which was scheduled CLAEX, collaborated and integrated successive upgrades of the device. Highlights of this work, among other things, an ongoing series of developments in the software, or OFP (Operational Flight Program), which give a great deal of independence to the Air Force regarding the manufacturer and the United States.

 

[swerve]

... I would think that the Typhoon/JSF mix would be far more balanced. Then again personally, I think that the F-35 alone would be sufficient as the main fighter. It could be procured in larger numbers, and is by far the most advanced fighter available to spain.

But it isn't available yet. The Typhoon will have been in service 10 years by the time Spain could put its first F-35 into service.

 

[Templario]

Spain only wants the F-35B for the Navy, there's no plans in the "Ejército del Aire" for buying F-35, and personally I think it's a good decission.
The F-35 is a wonderful fighter (at least seems to be), but I see some things I don´t like for replacing our F-18, for example:

* It has only 1 engine
* It has less space for weapons
* It's not at 100 % of capabilities (The 100 % version is only for USA)
* It doesn't reach Mach 2
* It's ugly (well ... that's only my opinion nfloorl

I'd like to buy more EF-2000 instead of buying F-35.

Another good option would be making a new european consortium and building our own plane.

Germany-France-Spain (3 countries with no F-35's) would be an interesting alliance to construct a new plane


Cheers

 

[Alonso Quijano]

Spain only wants the F-35B for the Navy

put a link where you could say that the Navy is interested in the Spanish F-35B?

if an official site better.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Spain only wants the F-35B for the Navy, there's no plans in the "Ejército del Aire" for buying F-35, and personally I think it's a good decission.
The F-35 is a wonderful fighter (at least seems to be), but I see some things I don´t like for replacing our F-18, for example:

* It has only 1 engine

- So does the F1 Mirage and the Harrier II...

* It has less space for weapons

- Not true. F-35 has 10 hard points in total, Hornet only has 9... F-35 has only "2" rails for A2A missiles. Hornet has 4. F-35 therefore can carry a much greater variety of weapons, basically - more hard points = more weapons...

* It's not at 100 % of capabilities (The 100 % version is only for USA)

- Not exactly fair. No Country EVER gets a fighter as good as the US provides for herself.

* It doesn't reach Mach 2

- Neither does the Hornet. F-35 is likely to be faster in operational configuration than just about any other fighter (except of course the F-22) due to reduced drag on the airframe, thanks to internal weapons and sensors.

* It's ugly (well ... that's only my opinion nfloorl

- Well, one can't argue opinion...

I'd like to buy more EF-2000 instead of buying F-35.

Why? You already have a good number of them.

Is more of the same "legacy" 4th gen fighters, going to provide more capability than new "stealthy" 5th gen fighters?

Another good option would be making a new european consortium and building our own plane.

Germany-France-Spain (3 countries with no F-35's) would be an interesting alliance to construct a new plane


Cheers

You will need replacements for the Hornets before this aircraft could ever get off the ground...

 

[Alonso Quijano]

Not true. F-35 has 10 hard points in total, Hornet only has 9... F-35 has only "2" rails for A2A missiles. Hornet has 4. F-35 therefore can carry a much greater variety of weapons, basically - more hard points = more weapons...

Why? You already have a good number of them.

Is more of the same "legacy" 4th gen fighters, going to provide more capability than new "stealthy" 5th gen fighters?

if you use all these points to bear arms loses much stealth capabilities, "the main attraction of this airplane."

 

[Templario]

- So does the F1 Mirage and the Harrier II...

But the F-18 (the fighter which would replace) is a twin-engine
For replacing a twin-engine I want another one.

It's been demonstrated plenty of times that a twin-engine is much more reliable than a plane with just 1 engine.

- Not true. F-35 has 10 hard points in total, Hornet only has 9... F-35 has only "2" rails for A2A missiles. Hornet has 4. F-35 therefore can carry a much greater variety of weapons, basically - more hard points = more weapons...

And if you use all those hard points the stealth capability goes down .
And if a F-35 is not stealth (and remember that our version wouldn't be as stealth as the american one) then .... what's the good point about the F-35? It's like another F-16 (well, with several electronic improvements and so).

- Not exactly fair. No Country EVER gets a fighter as good as the US provides for herself.

I know, and that's why I prefer to buy a plane at 100 % of capabilities, like the EF-2000 or another one.

- Neither does the Hornet. F-35 is likely to be faster in operational configuration than just about any other fighter (except of course the F-22) due to reduced drag on the airframe, thanks to internal weapons and sensors.

If I want a plane for replacing our F-18 I want it to be more capable in all characteristics.
And yes, the F-35 is more capable than the F-18 ... but not enough in my opinion.

Why? You already have a good number of them.

Is more of the same "legacy" 4th gen fighters, going to provide more capability than new "stealthy" 5th gen fighters?

I think so.

If we want a fast plane which can carry more weapons and we don't focus in the stealth capability the option is the EF-2000, not the F-35.

And in fact I consider more important the speed and weapon capabilities than the stealth (If the F-35 carries all the weapons loses its stealth capability).

You will need replacements for the Hornets before this aircraft could ever get off the ground...

Maybe, but I still think that developing a new plane is a good option, as we design what exactly we want, and of course it's good for our industry.

A project like this woulkd take us about 15 years to develop, so I consider it's a fair period of time for replacing our F-18.


Cheers

 

[swerve]

put a link where you could say that the Navy is interested in the Spanish F-35B?

if an official site better.

The Armada is currently building a ship designed to operate the F-35B. Its Harriers have a limited remaining life. What other conclusion can there be?

 

[Alonso Quijano]

The Armada is currently building a ship designed to operate the F-35B. Its Harriers have a limited remaining life. What other conclusion can there be?

our new ship in the Navy (the BPE), can operate with many different types of ships, but that does not mean you have to buy the F-35B, and is manufactured to operate with allies in NATO.
I suppose that if the substitute natural harrier is the F-35B but for the moment our government is silent.