Iraq Buys F-16s?

swerve

Super Moderator
Lets not talk about logistic here, it may be a problem to other countries. Iraq has oil.
Doesn't matter. Problems don't magically disappear because you have some oil. Firstly, oil revenues are finite. Iraqs oil revenues, per person, at current oil prices, are not huge. They wouldn't pay for (e.g.) the British health service. And even if Iraq had bottomless pit of money, the mere possession of it wouldn't resolve the operational problems of a complicated supply chain.
 

dragonfire

New Member
No its not..its only slightly larger than the UK,

second its not as developed as the Uk, a large portion is desert. Iraq needs only defensive arms for the moment not offensive capabilities, theres no point investing in MBTs when they have yet to put down the insurgency, if there attacked the US would defend them with heavy weaponry
UK - 244,820 km2
Iraq - 438,317 km2

as per wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_kingdom

For the rest you havent obviously read mine or other posts
 

Ryan UK

New Member
the rest is my own imput not to do with yours i guess it should have been in a different paragraph.

And from a quick look at a world map i would not trust those wiki figures
 

dragonfire

New Member
the rest is my own imput not to do with yours i guess it should have been in a different paragraph.

And from a quick look at a world map i would not trust those wiki figures
Ryan the way this would work is when you counter facts with facts/ sources which then can be validated/verified, besides i see a senior member also countering wht you are stating
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
All are good points with capability building, doctrine etc but would have been more helpful had you indicated how you think these would be compromised by not choosing F-16s if that's indeed your point or are we no longer talking about choosing F-16s/JF-17/others, which your comment about the above factors being 'more important than the platform' seem to indicate, which btw I also happen to agree.
While I am not well acquainted with the situation on Iraq (compared to some other DT forum members), I would think that one of their greatest challenges in rebuilding their air force is that of human resources. It is not just the narrow issue of a platform purchase. If they train pilots and air crew and cannot retain these professionals, they will be back to square one.

Remember the old TV show, the $6 million dollar man? :) Training each pilot is at least a million dollar cost item (to complete advanced jet training alone before becoming an operational pilot). The training of a squadron leader costs much more.

Beyond logistics (which is a basic test of military competence), I happen to think the pilot/war fighter is as important to the military capability equation as the platform choice. The systems and platform choices that a country invests in must give coherence to the pilot/war fighter in real capability terms.

In Iraq's case, their 'kong fu' master/teacher is the USAF, so they better use what their 'kong fu' master/teacher is using.

If Iraq buys JF-17s, how is their 'kong fu' master/teacher going to teach them on the specific fighter tactics? Someone will have to write all the training manuals/materials (for the specific fighter type tactics) and even develop a simulator for the JF-17.

Let's just give one over simplified example. Most people would agree that the purchase of simulators are important to pilot training. I'll just cite 3 benefits to having simulators (there are more benefits than that):

(i) it saves on training costs (no need to gas up an actual fighter);
(ii) it enhances safety (for rookie pilots); and
(iii) it enables your pilot to train for dangerous scenarios without risking a fighter plane.​

It would not be cost effective to invest in a single simulator if each Iraqi squadron (of the 2 squadrons Iraq is preparing to initially stand-up) was using a different fighter platform.

Take for instance, India's one aircraft type (as dragonfire had confirmed), the 230x Su-30MKI (for the hi portion of their hi-low mix of fighters) outnumbers Singapore's total fighter numbers (in our 7 fighter squadrons). The problems faced by India and Pakistan are not applicable to Iraq, Singapore or Malaysia.

That is why I am critical of Malaysia's choices (in contrast to India's or Pakistan's choices). Would you (as a country) buy 1 simulator for 8 planes? Another different simulator for the next 15 planes? And then another for the next 18 planes? This sort of variety adds unnecessary costs and complexity that has a net effect of reducing capability.

Fine if you prefer not to talk about the tanks decision. I just think since it'll be a while before we'll know the air force decision, the tanks deals are the closest thing we have now to gauge the thinking of the Iraqi decision makers and it seems to indicate they're following a path of at least spreading their eggs onto different baskets.
We can address the M1/T-72 issue directly in the other thread. It will merit a separate and different response. Ask the question there. I'll reply with my thoughts there (for whatever they are worth).
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
the rest is my own imput not to do with yours i guess it should have been in a different paragraph.

And from a quick look at a world map i would not trust those wiki figures
What projection was the world map on? Unless it was a true equal area projection (which will distort the shapes), or a globe, it can't be trusted to accurately show areas. And judging accurately (or anything like) the relative areas of different shapes by eye is almost impossible to do.

Those Wiki figures are the official figures for both countries, & they are found in every official source you care to look at, e.g. the UNSO database. Nobody disagrees with them, except for a fraction of 1% on the Iraq figure, mostly due to border disputes. With satellite mapping, anyone can (& does) check them. The US govt, for example, publishes its own estimates, & they agree pretty well with the Iraqi figure, & precisely with the UK.

National area figures can't be faked. Except where affected by border disputes, they're not things you can debate.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Doesn't matter. Problems don't magically disappear because you have some oil. Firstly, oil revenues are finite. Iraqs oil revenues, per person, at current oil prices, are not huge. They wouldn't pay for (e.g.) the British health service. And even if Iraq had bottomless pit of money, the mere possession of it wouldn't resolve the operational problems of a complicated supply chain.
@Schumacher,

I was reading the thread again and I have to say I like swerve's reply much better than my long winded posts.

The short reply is as follows:
(i) choose the simplest and shortest route to acquire a capability; and
(ii) don't make life more difficult than necessary for your own armed forces (in this case, the Iraqi air force).​

BTW, my favourate Chinese platform is the J-10 (see link on SibNIA's role). While China's ability to master military technology must not be underestimated, they are not always the most suitable platform solution.
 

anan

Member
Should this thread be consolidated into the Iraqi Air Force and Air Defense thread?

I am new here, so I apologize if my question is out of order.
 

Almaleki

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #50
@Feanor, Schumacher and Transient, thank you for your thoughtful replies. I enjoyed reading them.



Yes, I am Singaporean.

There is a connection between Singapore and Iraq that you may not know about. Singapore's first Chief Minister, the late Mr. David Marshall comes from a family of Iraqi ancestry. The late Mr. Marshall was first and foremost a nationalist and had also served as our past ambassador to France, Spain, Portugal and Switzerland.



I don't understand what you are saying.

For more information, please read my book review on "Defending the Lion City". Better yet, read the book. I will only suggest that you read more.



Again, I don't understand what you are saying.

Feanor, our friendly moderator had kindly explained the concept of C4I to you. Please read up on C4I systems, as it is very important military topic and concept. If Iraq does not develop effective C4I systems, more of your soldiers will be unnecessarily hurt in any air-land battle (see concept of air-land battle employing aircraft & artillery).

I understand from a 2008 report (see link for more details) from the Wall Street Journal that the Iraqi government is seeking to buy 36 F-16 fighters from the U.S. The effective employment of the 2 squadrons of F-16 will depend on the C4I systems being developed in the context of a developing combined arms doctrine for the Iraqi army.

I also note that there is a Dec 2008 report (see link for more details) that the Iraqi Air Force plans to buy at least 8 COIN aircraft that can serve a dual role as a intermediate to advanced single-engine turboprop trainers.



I'm sure the soldiers in the Iraqi army has courage as demonstrated in Operation Charge of the Knights.

I wish you and your country good luck in the road ahead.
well i meant Spaces between Us and You << indeed the Only thing i hate in Singapore is that they are An Ally for Israel ,, which is and Iran My Primary Enemies ......

well the 36 Fighter is Just the Start for a Bigger Plan ...as 36 for 2011 and 54 per year untill 2015 = 252 Fighter

WHAT !!!!! we Ordered 60 COIN Attack Plane which is the AT-6B Armed Plane >> 36 on the second and 24 on the First .... Check the DCSA

I am From Basra :D:D:D:D:D
 

Almaleki

New Member
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  • #51
@OPSSG

I notice there's another thread that talks about Iraq buying many used T-72 in addition to some M1s. Cost may be a big issue but I don't think Iraq is a poor country, with plenty of the black gold. So it may reflect a bit of their thinking with regard to the issues we've talked about here like maintaining independence & not putting all eggs in one basket.
So I'll be surprised if they bought more than a few dozens F-16s, maybe the 36 you mention with the bulk of their air force eventually being made up of Chinese/Russian stuffs.
OFF-TOPIC

For Info : we Declined that
 

Almaleki

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  • #52
@Schumacher

1. I want to respectfully disagree with your train of thought. Let me explain:

(i) I prefer to look at arms purchases through the lens of military capability building. I prefer to assume that there is a semblance of rational decision making on the part of Iraqi government and its fledgling military.

(ii) I am not a fan of using political analysis because it is a purely subjective point of view (we will end up saying, we agree to disagree).

(iii) In building military capability, some important factors to consider include leadership, doctrine & tactics, quality of people, motivation and technical competence. The aforesaid factors are far more important than the platform (i.e. the F-16s or M1s/T-72s).​

2. If you are viewing arms purchases through the lens of military capability building, you will not end up with the above post.

3. Ask yourself: How realistic is it for Iraq (to even pretend) to be independent of the need for US/coalition support? If all US/coalition forces left tomorrow, Iraq will descend into anarchy.

4. The arms purchases announced in 2008 is about building Iraqi military capability for the future (in the 2010-2015 time frame and beyond).



5. It takes time to build capability. And building military capability is about training Iraqi people to stand on their own. Even if the US agreed to sell more F-16s, the Iraqi air force will still need skilled pilots and aircraft technicians. So what is the use of buying more planes from other countries? Will the other countries provide the necessary training and the doctrine & tactics to effectively employ the platforms?

6. These military skill sets do not grow on trees. It takes about 18-30 months to build a squadron of F-16s in a factory, but it takes more than twice the amount of time to train a squadron leader or a crew chief. And that's just basic competence for the air force. Developing a combined arms doctrine in an air-land battle for the Iraqi forces will take even longer (ie. try not to drop bombs on your own forces and to use the correct tools to shoot/bomb the enemy).

7. If you don't mind, I do not want to discuss the M1/T-72 purchase in this thread, as it is off topic. Please view the F-16 purchase as the start of the rebuilding of a fixed wing air combat capability for Iraq.
Hello ,, AGAIN you are interested in Iraqi Army geeeeeeee

ONE Sentence Answer :
We Dont Buy Russian but i really think we Must Cuz that will let us Define Our Weapons without Know Of USA and that will be without the Knowledge of Israel .... Which Know all about American Supplied Arabic Countries ... who Dont have a Chance against
 

Almaleki

New Member
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  • #53
One point i would like to make is that when the USA pull out of IRAQ,is that if IRAN did attack IRAQ,Im sure there would be a worldwide backlash,similar to what happened when Iraq invaded Kuwaite.The world community will not just sit back and watch Iran invade Iraq.

Almaleki, welcome to the forum and i do wish your country a prosperouse future. Transient,i agree with your whole post,if i were IRAQ i would be staying away from the JF-17,and opting for the F-16 Falcon(a proven battle wining platform)weather you purchase New build F-16 or second hand F-16 and put em thru the falcon upgrade.I think the second option is the most likley option in my opinion.
That will Be Sured ,, But it will be better to Defend your Land with your Own Military NOT OTHERS ,, as they will need Pay for that ....

well the Iraqis are Buying it freshly NEW so why would we m I mean Egyptian Did and they Dont Have a Good Air Force now .....
 

Almaleki

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #54
i disagree its not a large country but it is surrounded by Potential enemies, all that is needed is a strong defensive force (anti tank capabilities, anti air capabilities) and it should do fine, a few squadrons of fighters are definitely needed though.
:eek:nfloorl::eek:nfloorl::eek:nfloorl::eek:nfloorl::eek:nfloorl::eek:nfloorl::eek:nfloorl::eek:nfloorl::eek:nfloorl:

we are Bigger than you two Times and you what a small country well UAE is a small Country and thay Have one of the Best Artillary Squadrons on the World and the Most Advanced F-16 Which is B 60 and is Much Better that America Does Have .... and willing to buy Rafale ....................................... Believe me its a hot ZOne
 

Almaleki

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #55
Question :

Egypt Bought the F-16s But never supplied with Amraam Do you think that Iraqis will have it or not ??
 

ROCK45

New Member
Amraam

Hi Almaleki
You seem right I went to a certain F-16 site and couldn't find a thing about AIM-120 sold to Egypt never knew that. I'm surprised

Off the top of head I don't think their Mirage 2000's have MICA's, correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks
 
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Almaleki

New Member
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  • #57
I am Not great in Missiles ,, Too good i have the Info on AIM-120 ( From the PS2 Games )
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
well i meant Spaces between Us and You << indeed the Only thing i hate in Singapore is that they are An Ally for Israel ,, which is and Iran My Primary Enemies ......
You say you hate Singapore for our ties to Israel. I am very disappointed with your limited view point. :(

Are you aware that Singapore has a significant Muslim minority of approximately 14% (a significant number of which are Malay and Indian Muslims)? And that we, as a country have taken great strides towards racial and religious harmony. Further, two of my good Chinese friends have converted to Islam and I have many more Muslim friends. Why don't you read more? :lul

Like many other ASEAN countries (including Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei), Singapore is a member of the Non-Aligned Movement (so officially we are not allies with Israel). :D

Why single out Singapore's relationship with Israel for criticism? What about the other countries (including Muslim majority countries)? :rolleyes:

Certain Muslim countries like Turkey and Indonesia (Searcher UAVs, rifles and other equipment) also buy Israeli equipment. Trade volume between Turkey and Israel was $2.6 billion in 2007 and some suggest at least $1.8 billion of this can be attributed to military equipment trade... In fact, Turkey and Israel are conducting joint military exercises (reportedly directed against Syria, their mutual enemy) and have a strong partnership in terms of military equipment and arms. Further, both Turkey and Israel have various defence agreements in various areas, including:
(i) Security and Secrecy;
(ii) Military Training Co-operation; and
(iii) Defence Industry Co-operation.​

Are you aware that Singapore (in our own small way) was also contributing to reconstruction efforts in Iraq and also provided some training to Iraqi policemen and the Iraqi navy?

On 12 Feb 2009, our Defence Minister explained that Singapore had made multiple deployments of naval vessels, KC-135 tanker aircraft and C-130 transport aircraft in Iraq since 2003. Did you know that 998 Singaporeans (some of whom have served multiple tours) have served in reconstruction efforts for Iraq?

well the 36 Fighter is Just the Start for a Bigger Plan ...as 36 for 2011 and 54 per year until 2015 = 252 Fighter
Where did you get the 252 Fighter number? This is a very large number of fighter aircraft. Does it make sense? Please provide the source.

Egypt Bought the F-16s But never supplied with Amraam
IIRC Egypt was not supplied with the Amraam. However, please note that UAE and Jordan have purchased or has ordered the Amraam.

I am From Basra :D:D:D:D:D
Thank you for letting me know. :)
 
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Almaleki

New Member
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  • #59
You say you hate Singapore for our ties to Israel. I am very disappointed with you limited view point. :(

Are you aware that Singapore has a significant Muslim minority of approximately 14% (a significant number of which are Malay and Indian Muslims)? And that we, as a country have taken great strides towards racial and religious harmony. Further, two of my good Chinese friends have converted to Islam and I have many more Muslim friends. Why don't you read more? :lul

Like many other ASEAN countries (including Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei), Singapore is a member of the Non-Aligned Movement (so officially we are not allies with Israel). :D

Why single out Singapore's relationship with Israel for criticism. What about the other countries (including Muslim majority countries)? :rolleyes:

Certain Muslim countries like Turkey and Indonesia (Searcher UAVs, rifles and other equipment) also buy Israeli equipment. Trade volume between Turkey and Israel was $2.6 billion in 2007 and some suggest at least $1.8 billion of this can be attributed to military equipment trade... In fact, Turkey and Israel are conducting joint military exercises (reportedly directed against Syria, their mutual enemy) and have a strong partnership in terms of military equipment and arms. Further, both Turkey and Israel have various defence agreements in various areas, including:
(i) Security and Secrecy;
(ii) Military Training Co-operation; and
(iii) Defence Industry Co-operation.​

Are you aware that Singapore (in our own small way) was also contributing to reconstruction efforts in Iraq and also provided some training to Iraqi policemen and the Iraqi navy?

On 12 Feb 2009, our Defence Minister explained that Singapore had made multiple deployments of naval vessels, KC-135 tanker aircraft and C-130 transport aircraft in Iraq since 2003. Did you know that 998 Singaporeans (some of whom have served multiple tours) have served in reconstruction efforts for Iraq?



Where did you get the 252 Fighter number? This is a very large number of fighter aircraft. Does it make sense? Please provide the source.



IIRC Egypt was not supplied with the Amraam. However, please note that UAE and Jordan have purchased or has ordered the Amraam.



Thank you for letting me know. :)

Hi Again ,,

I am more Likely to Arabian Nation Not Islamic one cuz Muslims Dont Have Anything Against Israel Just Iran ,, But Iran Hate Arab .... so I Dont say I hate Singapore But i say the Only thing i hate ,, i mean I like Turkey But i hate that they Co-Produce with Israel ,, Although i like America and they are the Big Devil For us .... and i like Singapore indeed ,,,

Oh please Israel Send Merc to train Iraqis ... and Mossad for Intelligence that Day i saw an Explosion Targets Mossad Operator ......

But its still a great Start ....

Check The wiki and Every Source ,, I had one about the 252 But i cant Find It ,, Search for it ;)

lets Hope they do give us the Aims
 
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