Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone

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Burunsuzoglu

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swerve said:
Which means it has no discretion. As long as US ships give sufficient notice, & aren't aircraft carriers or otherwise restricted, Turkey has to let them through.
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Why would US need to send an aircraft carrier, it has access to all the bases it requires in Turkey and Azerbaijan.
 
K

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
swerve said:
Which means it has no discretion. As long as US ships give sufficient notice, & aren't aircraft carriers or otherwise restricted, Turkey has to let them through.
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... the "otherwise restricted" means 10.000 tons standard displacement. I.e. you could send through anything up to a CG (though those only one at a time, overall 15.000 ton limit in the straits), but not a single amphib.
 
C

Chrom

New Member
swerve said:
Which means it has no discretion. As long as US ships give sufficient notice, & aren't aircraft carriers or otherwise restricted, Turkey has to let them through.
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Please read convention more carefully. US is NOT a Black Sea country and as such restricted to total ship tonnage rules. 20000 tons for all military ships in Black Sea combined maximum. Carrier rule is valid only for Black Sea countries.
 
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Chrom

New Member
Burunsuzoglu said:
What planet are you on, Turkey has a bigger stake in ensuring Russia stays out of the Region than the USA.
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US play as major destabilizing factor in region. Turkey feel itself insulted by US with Kurds situation as is, Georgia and some other US moves added to that. There is very good reason why Turkey was one of very few NATO countries which directly supported Russia in this conflict, not just remained neutral as many others like f.e. Germany or France.

Turkey dont like very much what US is doing in Caucasus and Iraq.
 
C

Chrom

New Member
Burunsuzoglu said:
Why would US need to send an aircraft carrier, it has access to all the bases it requires in Turkey and Azerbaijan.
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Contrary to your fantasies, both Turkey and Azerbaijan refuses US to use they bases for some purposes - f.e. attack against Iran. Turkey is obliged to grant access for US (and other NATO countries) military assets only if particular operation is decided and planned by NATO - and given what all major decisions in NATO are taken unanimously, this is moot point anyway. Turkey already expressed it will decline to support operation against Iran.

Azerbaijan is even harder case for US, as it is not even in NATO. No way Azerbaijan will support US against Iran or Russia.
 
K

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
NATO is moving part of SNMG2 (STANAVFORMED) into the Black Sea btw, for "long-planned maneuvers with Romania and Bulgaria".

Four frigates or so.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
Chrom said:
Please read convention more carefully. US is NOT a Black Sea country and as such restricted to total ship tonnage rules. 20000 tons for all military ships in Black Sea combined maximum. Carrier rule is valid only for Black Sea countries.
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Not quite. What I said is not quite correct, but neither is your statement. The There isn't a specific ban on aircraft carriers. There's a limit on ship size, except for Black Sea fleets, which may send one "capital ship" at a time through. But aircraft carriers aren't defined as capital ships, so fall foul of the size limit, for both Black Sea & other navies. To get round it, you have to fit big guns, or lots of missiles, or otherwise make them resemble something other than aircraft carriers (in the words of the convention, "designed or adapted primarily for the purpose of carrying and operating aircraft"), as the USSR did. Or disarm them & remove the engines so they are no longer warships, but hulks, & tow them through.

The ceiling for total tonnage in the Black Sea is 30000 tons, subject to the tonnage of the largest Black Sea fleet. If Russias Black Sea Fleet is big enough, up to 45000 tons of foreign warships could be allowed in.
 
C

Chrom

New Member
kato said:
NATO is moving part of SNMG2 (STANAVFORMED) into the Black Sea btw, for "long-planned maneuvers with Romania and Bulgaria".

Four frigates or so.
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NATO dont exist as whole in these treaties, each country is counted separately. Whats why NATO could send 4 frigates. But US cant send 4 american firgates.
 
C

Chrom

New Member
swerve said:
The ceiling for total tonnage in the Black Sea is 30000 tons, subject to the tonnage of the largest Black Sea fleet. If Russias Black Sea Fleet is big enough, up to 45000 tons of foreign warships could be allowed in.
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See....
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1) The aggregate tonnage which non-Black Sea Powers may have in that sea in time of peace shall be limited as follows:

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) below, the aggregate tonnage of the said Powers shall not exceed 30.000 tons;

(b) If at any time the tonnage ot the strongest fleet in the Black Sea shall exceed by at least 10.000 tons the tonnage of the strongest fleet in that sea at the date of the signature of the present Convention, the aggregate tonnage of 30.000 tons mentioned in paragrahp (a) shall be increased by the same amount, up to a maximum of 45,000 tons. For this purpose, each Black Sea Power shall, in conformity with Annex IV to the present Convention, inform the Turkish Govrnment, on the 1 st January and the 1st July of each year, of the total tonnage of its fleet in the Black Sea; and the Turkish Government shall transmit this information to the other High Contracting Parties and to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations;

(c) The tonnage which any one non-Black Sea Power may have in the Black Sea shall be limited to two-thirds of the aggregate tonnage provided for in paragraphs (a) and (b) above;

(d) In the event, however, of one or more non-Black Sea Powers desiring to send naval forces into the Black Sea, for a humanitarian purpose, the said forces, which shall in no case exceed 8.000 tons altogether, shall be allowed to enter the Black Sea without having to give the notification provided for in Article 13 of the present Convention, provided an authorisation is obtained from the Turkish Government in the following circumstances: if the figure of the aggregate tonnage specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) above has not been reaached and will not be exceeded by the despatch of the forces which it is desired to send, the Turkish Government shall grant the said authorisation within the shortest possible time after receiving the request which has been addressed to it; if the said figure has already been reached or if the despatch of the forces which it is desired to send will cause it to be exceeded, the Turkish Go',ernment will immediately inform the other Black Sea Powers of the request for authorisation, and if the said Powers make no objection within twenty-four hours of having received this information, the Turkish Government shall, within forty-eight hours at the latest, inform the interested Powers of the reply which it has decided to make to their request.
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Read it carefully. 2/3 of 30000 or, in some cases, may be 2/3 of 45000. I.e non-Black Sea countries are restricted to normally 20000. In some cases, 30000. Not more in any case. Obviously, only 1 non-Black Sea navy can ever reach 20000 (30000) tons limit. Even 2 of them will exceed total 30000 (45000) tons limit imposed for all non-Black Sea navies combined.

Even that is valid only if no more non-Black Sea military vessels are present in Black Sea. F.e. if India sends 16000 tons cruisers to Black Sea, then NATO countries except Turkey will be limited to either 14000 or 29000 tons total.

Also, It both bans and guarantees. Bans in the sense what Turkey must deny any passage if total tonnage of non-Black Sea navies exceed 30000 (45000) tons. Guaranties in the sense what as long as limit is not reached, Turkey is obliged to give free passage.
 
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eaf-f16

New Member
Would I be correct in saying that this guy is Spetsnaz? What's the gun he's holding?
 
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Topmaul

New Member
Pretty safe bet that is a very special weapon and a very effective one.

Caliber: 9x39mm SP-6 Subsonic
Payload: 10 box mag


The VSS Vintorez is the sniping model of the AS VAL. First issued in 1987, the Vintorez quickly became a popular rifle with military and law enforcement units alike. Though intended for short to medium range engagements, the Vintorez still exhibits stunning armour piercing abilities, penetrating 8mm steel plate at 100 meters. The VSS Vintorez is a perfect urban warfare rifle; short, light, quiet and deadly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSS_Vintorez
 
C

Chrom

New Member
eaf-f16 said:
Would I be correct in saying that this guy is Spetsnaz? What's the gun he's holding?
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Lools like variant of "VSS" silenced sniper rifle, but i cant be sure with such small picture. Generally, these rifles are used by various special forces. "Spetsnaz" is too broad definition now and dont have the clear meaning it was decades ago.
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #257
After a few exercises being cancelled from both sides, Russia unilaterally froze all military cooperation with NATO. It looks like someone's upping the stakes.
 
G

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Feanor said:
After a few exercises being cancelled from both sides, Russia unilaterally froze all military cooperation with NATO. It looks like someone's upping the stakes.
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I'd it's more like Russia is pre-empting more NATO repsonses; it denies NATO the comfort of symbolic gestures (from Moscows view, I do not happen to agree).
 
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Topmaul

New Member
There will be no discussion of the U.S. presidential election on this forum.
 
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Firehorse

Banned Member
Russia-Georgia conflict: Why both sides have valid points
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0819/p12s01-woeu.html

How Israel Trained and Equipped Georgia's Army
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/did-israel-trai.html

I would now be waiting for more news from Tbilisi and other ethnic areas still under Georgian control, as well as Ukraine. The Russians are patient people but there is a point when they decide to take a stand to protect their interests. Over 200 years ago, there was a debate in Georgia about its relations with big Christian powers in their struggles with Turkey & Persia. http://nvo.ng.ru/history/2008-08-15/6_tbilisi.html?insidedoc

http://nvo.ng.ru/history/2008-08-22/12_conflikt.html

It was decided that only Russia could act as a sure safeguard. Now, by seeking NATO/EU protection they actually compromise their security more. What is NATO/US going to do to keep Azerbaijan from going back to Russian orbit, or to stop the split of Ukraine?
 
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