New frigates for Greek Navy

[contedicavour]

Actually the first 3 AAW ships should replace the 3 CF Adams ex USN destroyers (with SM-1 MR) who have been phased out. Since their phasing out, Greece has lost all medium range AAW capability.
The FREDAs are supposed to be AAW DDGs in all but name (although they will lack the long range air search radar).
May be it would make sense for Greece to build 3 FREDAs and then gradually a class of up to 6 FREMMs in land attack/ASW versions. These ships would be cheaper and would more logically replace ASW Kortenaer/Elli FFGs than the more expensive AAW FREMM/FREDA.

cheers

 

[eliaslar]

@contedicavour
Your scenario is very logical, if FREDA's are chosen.

There will be no problem from french side to give SCALP naval, which is already in use with the Greek Air Force, also there was an interest from the Greek side about this weapon.
I don't know if all this interest photographs the FREDA/FREMM ships.

Maybe it would be interesting for Greek navy to think an "improvement" of these ships by using the SMART-L RADAR, there will be significant changes in the ships structure but i think it worths the try. After all much of the other sensors of FREDA and FREMM are developed by THALES, i don't think there is a matter of communication and compatibility among the systems.

 

[contedicavour]

@contedicavour
Your scenario is very logical, if FREDA's are chosen.

There will be no problem from french side to give SCALP naval, which is already in use with the Greek Air Force, also there was an interest from the Greek side about this weapon.
I don't know if all this interest photographs the FREDA/FREMM ships.

Maybe it would be interesting for Greek navy to think an "improvement" of these ships by using the SMART-L RADAR, there will be significant changes in the ships structure but i think it worths the try. After all much of the other sensors of FREDA and FREMM are developed by THALES, i don't think there is a matter of communication and compatibility among the systems.

Good point, finding a way to install a long range air search radar would make the FREDAs real AAW DDGs. However I fear that the main problem is space. The S1850 radar we use on the Horizons is certainly too big to fit on a FREDA. May be a scaled down SMART-L might, but the ships are crowded and already expensive as they are (400 million euro each excluding non recurrent costs)

cheers

 

[Atilla [TR]]

What is the relations like between Bosnia and Croatia?

 

[contedicavour]

What is the relations like between Bosnia and Croatia?

A bit offtopic isn't it ?

Bosnia's foreign policy is a very delicate balacing act between the interests of its Serbian half and those of its Bosniak-Croatian half...

cheers

 

[dk706]

i would say that customizing the Freda design is out of the question for Greece. Greece needs off the shelve solutions that will keep the cost down and will have minimum risk ...especially after the experience with the type 214. I would say going straight for the F124 or the similar dutch design makes more sense.

Greece certainly needs more than 3 AAW units in a very congested Aegean and land attack although would be nice to have but is not a necessity since the air force can cover that role sufficiently and in a much more cost effective way with JSOW ER and SCALP EG.

 

[swerve]

Good point, finding a way to install a long range air search radar would make the FREDAs real AAW DDGs. However I fear that the main problem is space. The S1850 radar we use on the Horizons is certainly too big to fit on a FREDA. May be a scaled down SMART-L might, but the ships are crowded and already expensive as they are (400 million euro each excluding non recurrent costs)

cheers

Sure about that? F124, De Zeven Provincien & the new Danish so-called "Patrol Ships" are abut the same size as a FREMM, AFAIK all have a full SMART-L, & S1850 is a modified SMART-L.

 

[eliaslar]

swerve is right, i didn't know that S1850 was a modified SMART-L, they have about the same capabilities.

@dk706
Surely Greece needs more than 3 ships, but as FREDA and F-124 sensors have about the same capabilities, then their differences are mostly in their design (RCS) and the weapons they carry.

Also Greek navy didn't have any recent experience with French or Italian designed big ships, but that won't be a big problem i think.

Also the land attack capability is very significant because of the sub-strategic abilities of SCALP Naval.

The main drawback for the navy to have such ships, whichever is bought, will be the logistic supply. There will be very hard times for the logistic services to properly supply 3 types of frigates at the same time. This will happen because the Standard type frigates will be in service untill 2015, when the new frigate program is complete, and at the same time there will be in service the 4 MEKO200HN frigates.

I can't find something for the Combat management System of the FREMM/FREDA's, is it based on TACTICOS?

 

[contedicavour]

Sure about that? F124, De Zeven Provincien & the new Danish so-called "Patrol Ships" are abut the same size as a FREMM, AFAIK all have a full SMART-L, & S1850 is a modified SMART-L.

Oh yes, the French DCN and Thales have been trying to fix this for over 4 years now, since it became clear that there would be no funding for more than the 2 approved Horizons. The FREDA concept has been turned upside down in all possible manners, the S1850 just doesn't fit in.
Remember the FREMMs initially were not supposed to do AAW, they were either for ASW or for land attack. The F124 and the De Zeven Provincen were conceived as of the beginning for AAW.

cheers

 

[dk706]

Eliaslar i totally disagree with what you are saying... You are basing your argument on the point that FREDA and LCF-F-124 have sensors with equivalent capabilities. That is not true by any means. The Freda is a french italian design that comes from freem and was not originally supposed to be an AAW platform the Horizon class was to fill that role and because of that it was more expensive than freda and with much better and heavier sensors, the EMPAR radar an AESA radar that is comparable to the APAR and the S1850M that is a direct derivative to the Smart-L PESA radar. The combination of a AESA for tracking a PESA radar for volume search has been used in all the modern European AAW platfoms( LCF F124 Horizon/Orrizonte Type 45) and have many common points...they are actually derivatives of each other....

Freda is in no sense comparable to those designs since it carries a smaller lightweight radar to do both jobs that more advanced and expensive radars do in other platforms.....

We can all imagine that if a company wants to sell something it will say that its product has the same abilities with the bigger boys in the hood but that is never true....especially when we are talking about an AESA compared to a PESA..... and especially in an environment that is filled with ECM and EW and antiradiation missiles are a threat ...

 

[dk706]

What is interesting is that recently BAE come out claiming that the new SAMPSON AESA radar they developed due to its very large range can actually cover the function of volume search without the existence of a VSR radar.

Wouldn't that be an interesting alternative to Heracles?
Does anyone know whether the superstructure of the Freda can handle the SAMPSON.....PAAMS would certainly be an interesting option...
Of course integration might be a problem and a bit costly..

 

[eliaslar]

@dk706
you are very right! Obviously i confused the Horizon and FREMM/FREDA programs!!
If such an integration of systems, as you say above, could happen that would be very interesting but although a bit costly.

Does anyone also knows any details about the Combat Management System of FREMM/FREDA's?

 

[jedigman]

How about our Great neighbours purchase some Milgem Corvettes or some T2000 Frigates (when it becomes available) Im sure our neighbours will get a huge discount. :crazy

 

[harryriedl]

Oh yes, the French DCN and Thales have been trying to fix this for over 4 years now, since it became clear that there would be no funding for more than the 2 approved Horizons. The FREDA concept has been turned upside down in all possible manners, the S1850 just doesn't fit in.
Remember the FREMMs initially were not supposed to do AAW, they were either for ASW or for land attack. The F124 and the De Zeven Provincen were conceived as of the beginning for AAW.

cheers

is the problem with FREDA [apart from cramming Horizon AAW ablitiy on 5,500 ton hull] is it a top weight problem with S1850.

 

[contedicavour]

is the problem with FREDA [apart from cramming Horizon AAW ablitiy on 5,500 ton hull] is it a top weight problem with S1850.

May be topweight is also a problem yes, though AFAIK the problem is space, unless you sacrifice some of the VLS or the hangar for the helo - the 1st decision being bad because we already only have 48 max, and 2nd decision being bad because the FREDA need to retain multi-role capability.

Regarding the discussion about the new version of SAMPSON that could replace long range 3D air search radar - actually everybody is working on making PESAs AESAs. The Italian navy FREMMs (which will all carry Aster 30) will have the new active phased array version of EMPAR. A huge improvement but certainly still inferior to the configuration of the Horizon DDGs...

cheers

 

[dk706]

Thats interesting as well but as a newer radar SAMPSON is bound to be even better than EMPAR and it also looks very stealthy RCS reduction and all...

What is interesting is that in the sea trials of the fist Type 45 destroyer the Navy announced that SAMPSON was able to track and acquire air traffic of many international airport including London Heathrow and Paris Charles de Gaul airport simultaneously.
Considering that the sea trials were taking place off he southern coast of England just below Portsmouth and Southampton then thats Impressive...

 

[dk706]

Obviously I take the suggestion for the Milgem and the TF2000 as a joke...

 

[CarrierRider]

I'm curious why the Hellenic Navy wouldnt be interested in a more low risk solution. The APAR and Sampson radars are still relatively unproven; and have a risky supply chain.

I would think an Aegis system on either one of the Navantia ships (f-100/f-310), or on a TKMS ship (meko-d or F-124) might make sense. It would give the Greeks access to the US SM family, with an upgrade path (sm-6). Its a proven and reliable radar.

 

[eliaslar]

@CarrierRider
Of course Aegis and SPY-1 are proven and reliable systems and i don't think there is a problem with their availability for Greece but there is a problem with the availability of some versions of SM2 missiles for Greece, something that doesn't exists for the Aster system.
This might play a significant part in the decision of the new frigates.

Also there is the demand that the new ships will be built in Greek shipyards.
There are 2 shipyards, in Athens, which can be used to make the ships.

The one is the Hellenic Shipyards S.A., which is a member of ThyssenKrupp Marine System Group, so there is no question about which ships it will built.
In these shipyards were also constucted the 3 MEKO200HN frigates, the 3 214's subs are under construction there and other smaller vessels for the navy, some gunboats etc as well as the upgrade program of the Standard class frigates.

The other shipyard is the Elefsis Shipyards, which have signed a memorandum of cooperation with Armaris about the FREMM frigates. These shipyards have constructed the 3 Super Vita FAC's and have 2 more under construction, they have also constructed one ETNA Class General Support Ship and there is also the upgrade of the Combattante class FAC's.

I don't say that the rest candidates don't have a chance but now the F-124/F-125 and the FREMM have a clear advantage on them.

 

[swerve]

I'm curious why the Hellenic Navy wouldnt be interested in a more low risk solution. The APAR and Sampson radars are still relatively unproven; and have a risky supply chain.

I would think an Aegis system on either one of the Navantia ships (f-100/f-310), or on a TKMS ship (meko-d or F-124) might make sense. It would give the Greeks access to the US SM family, with an upgrade path (sm-6). Its a proven and reliable radar.

The first De Zeven Provincien frigate was commissioned 6 years ago this month. Three others have since been commissioned, plus three F124s. That isn't a lot of ship years compared Aegis, but it should be plenty to have ironed out any wrinkles. To say that APAR should not be bought because it is unproven seems to fly in the face of the facts.

Also, why "risky supply chain"? BAE-Insyte & Thales Nederland are both based in countries which share with Greece membership of NATO & the EU. What's risky?

BTW, APAR/SMART-L works with the US SM family, and ESSM. Designed to, & those are the missiles carried by DZP & F124. There is no advantage to Aegis in that respect.