New frigates for Greek Navy

[eliaslar]

Hellenic navy (HN), as is the right name for Greek navy, is going to buy 6 new frigates to upgrade it's capabilities and put out of order the Standard class frigates.
The main role the ships will have is AAW but they will also have the ability to take Anti-Submarine warfare and Surface warfare missions.
The candidates for this program are:

- the French-Italian FREDA
- the German MEKO-D
- the Dutch LCF
- the Spanish F100

Also most of the ships will be built in Greek shipyards.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

I thought they where buying the FREDA (Fetanfloorl: ) ships I thought this was the decision they made?

 

[eliaslar]

There is no decision made yet, on this program. The only good news about it is that it began to run, because until now it was only a promise. The interesting part is that 2 of the candidates FREDA and MEKO-D, have already made contacts, with Greek shipyards about the construction of them. Especially MEKO-D belongs in the same group that have a share of Greek Shipyards SA, so there is no question on who will be the constructor in Greece.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

There is no decision made yet, on this program. The only good news about it is that it began to run, because until now it was only a promise. The interesting part is that 2 of the candidates FREDA and MEKO-D, have already made contacts, with Greek shipyards about the construction of them. Especially MEKO-D belongs in the same group that have a share of Greek Shipyards SA, so there is no question on who will be the constructor in Greece.

This may sound stupid but couldn't they do half and half where 3 FREDA ships and 3 MEKO ships if both are ready to start building then one these 2 will be picked.

 

[ASFC]

Given that Greece has (or had) 10 Standards, how come they are only buying six (other than the argument that six can do the job of ten)? What does the future hold for the Greek Surface Fleet (especially given the 'rumour' on wiki that they were after AB DDGs)?

 

[orko_8]

Given that Greece has (or had) 10 Standards, how come they are only buying six (other than the argument that six can do the job of ten)? What does the future hold for the Greek Surface Fleet (especially given the 'rumour' on wiki that they were after AB DDGs)?

Because one modern frigate (e.g FREMM)

1. Costs more (to maintain, operate and build&procure),
2. Needs less crew,
3. Can track and engage more targets,
4. Can stay at sea longer,

than an older one (e.g Standard).

By the way, as far as I know, the procurement package will be 3 + 3, the latter being option.

When I talked to the marketing officials of Fincantieri in Ankara during IDEF 2007 defense exhibition, they were very skeptical on how Greece will ever be able to exercise the +3 option of the project.

Either that option will be realized or not, FREMM seems to be the favorite so far.

 

[BilalK]

If finances are an issue, surely the smaller FM400 can be considered?

To help the export drive, DCNS has designed a 4,000-metric-ton warship, the FM400, smaller than the 5,500-metric-ton-FREMM multi-mission frigate but larger than the 1,200- to 2,000-ton Gowind corvette, which is under consideration by Bulgaria.

DCNS offers firm prices for the FM400, which has a modular architecture, allowing navies to specify the mission.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3409191&c=EUR&s=SEA

 

[orko_8]

FM400 indeeds looks like a promising design.. Well in fact I think it promises a lot.

Either way, IMHO, FM400 is intended for navies which maintain a sizeable corvette & patrol boat fleet and have no or little number of frigates and in the midterm want to get something that "costs like" corvettes but "punches like" frigates.

Greece's requirements are different, I think.

 

[Systems Adict]

Are the Hellenic Navy in a rush to purchase some new ships ??

I think the article in the link below may be of interest if they are.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/

3 ships, ready to go, if the price is right...


Systems Adict

 

[BilalK]

FM400 indeeds looks like a promising design.. Well in fact I think it promises a lot.

Either way, IMHO, FM400 is intended for navies which maintain a sizeable corvette & patrol boat fleet and have no or little number of frigates and in the midterm want to get something that "costs like" corvettes but "punches like" frigates.

Greece's requirements are different, I think.

I think FM400 will be as armed as the FREMM, but possibly have less crew - and of course less range. I think we may see a model of FM400 at the DCN stall in Pakistan during IDEAS 2008 - if not earlier.

 

[dk706]

I would also like to add the F124 in the discussion since it is also offered to the hellenic navy by the Germans as a larger more capable ship to the Meko D. As you all mentioned price is of the essence for the Hellenic navy so indeed Freda and Meko D are the designs with the better chance to win the competition. Also the weapons that the Frigates will have play a big part in the deal since the Americans in many cases have not cleared certain weapons for Greek procurements so the choice between the ESSM SM-2 and the Aster family is key to this program. Finally I think the radars that the frigates will carry are a source of major discussion in the navy that would love to opt for the APAR SMART-Lmk2 radars but likes better the lower cost and the lower cost platforms of a more conventional Phased Array radar.

Now as long the number of the ships goes we have to remember that the Standard Class of frigates is under a modernization program that digitalizes the ships and extends their life for another 15 years. in specific 6 of the ships in this class are under this program and by this I could say that the program will be 4+2 ships in option with a future composition of the fleet of 4 new frigates 6 standard and 4 meko200 if the option is not activated.

I would say that smaller ships than the Freda or Meko D are out of the question since they do not comply with the requirements of the navy.

 

[Sea Toby]

I would have thought those Brunei ships would have sold by now. Surely, somebody wants them. I guess the British want a very good price for new ships. Have there been any rumors anywhere of their sale? I was thinking in terms of either of the Baltic states or possibly Slovenia, or Croatia, or Bosnia. Even the Irish naval service could use these small frigates.

The British could use them in the Caribbean. They are pretty much what a low end frigate should be.

 

[Ragusian]

I would have thought those Brunei ships would have sold by now. Surely, somebody wants them. I guess the British want a very good price for new ships. Have there been any rumors anywhere of their sale? I was thinking in terms of either of the Baltic states or possibly Slovenia, or Croatia, or Bosnia. Even the Irish naval service could use these small frigates.

Slovenia is toying with buying a russian made warship, probably a smaller patrol boat(P10412) or maybe even P20382. Bosnia has a coastline of about 5 kms long, and is surronded completely by croatian soil and sea and they have no navy, just a police boat. Croatia just bought 2 helsinkis to fill the gap untill new built ships are built and will not consider anything without RBS-15 capability.
Irish Naval Service might find a use for them, but that would require a major shift in their policy and operations, judging by the fleet they're operating now(OPVs).

 

[eliaslar]

Some months ago, there was the discussion about Type 45 ships for our Navy, although it might be a very good ship nothing more about that was heared again about it. Also as it was said above, more and more are heard about the FREDA. The sure thing is that if the Germans want their candidates to become stronger, then that means that there should be a solution about the 1st of the new subs for our Navy, i don't think that Greece should buy a German frigate, before a solution is given to the subs.
Also the demands of the Greek Navy are for a ship which will have a weight of more that 5.000t so i think the MEKO D which is proposed to the navy will have more similarities to the F-124 class frigates than the MEKO D design which has a weight of 3.500t.
The main question about this program is that if USA will make available for Greece SM2 BlockIIIB missiles, SM2 BlockIIIA is available for Greece as also for Turkey. If not then the clear winner is FREDA.

 

[Sea Toby]

I am not familiar with the exact borders of the former Yugoslavia, and its fomer states. I should upgrade my old globe, but I am so fond of it. I didn't know Bosnia only had 5 km of coast. No wonder they only have a police boat. Thanks for the information.

I think the Irish are interested in a slightly bigger patrol boat in their soon to be next buy. However, I agree they aren't much interested in exocet SSMs or Seawolf SAMs. These ships are only 10 meters longer, and they have a helicopter deck but no hangar. Almost a perfect fit for the Irish. No need to wait 3-5 years for delivery either.

Surely, somebody wants them?

 

[Atilla [TR]]

I am not familiar with the exact borders of the former Yugoslavia, and its fomer states. I should upgrade my old globe, but I am so fond of it. I didn't know Bosnia only had 5 km of coast. No wonder they only have a police boat. Thanks for the information.

I think the Irish are interested in a slightly bigger patrol boat in their soon to be next buy. However, I agree they aren't much interested in exocet SSMs or Seawolf SAMs. These ships are only 10 meters longer, do have a helicopter deck but no hangar. Almost a perfect fit for the Irish. No need to wait 3-5 years for delivery either.

Surely, somebody wants them?

Just because they only have 5 km of coast does not mean that they should only have a police boat. At least a frigate, but I don't think they have the money to do this.

 

[dk706]

Eliaslar although I would never say that something is an overshoot for the hellenic navy in terms of capabilities the Type 45 certaintly is in terms of price.
As you said the navy requires a ship with a dispalcement of more than 5,000 and that is more than the Meko D and in the categorie of the Freda and the F124. Does anyone know any figures about the Heracles radar? Wiki has some figures for the APAR Smart-L http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Phased_Array_Radar
But we all know what they should be taken lightly since it is Wiki.

 

[swerve]

Just because they only have 5 km of coast does not mean that they should only have a police boat. At least a frigate, but I don't think they have the money to do this.

And what purpose would this frigate serve? It'd barely have room to turn. It would not be able to get out of machine-gun range of the coast.

Bosnias 20 (not 5) km of coast is deep inside a gulf, cut off from the open sea by Croatian territorial waters. Bosnian waters are an inlet a few km long, on which is the town of Neum, & a strip 10km long by about 1km on the other side of the peninsula which forms one side of the inlet. Beyond that is Croatian water. Merchant shipping has a right of passage, but AFAIK warships can only pass through with Croatian permission. Look at a map.

Police boats or two are all that's needed. Anything else would be pointless, a complete waste of money.

 

[eliaslar]

@dk706
take a look at this about Herakles
http://www.thales-naval.com/naval/pdf/herakles1.pdf

About the Type 45's, they are very capable but i think they are very big, with 8,000tons load. The ships i wrote about aren't an official short list, just the short list Greek media are thinking about. Of course in the months to come the official short list will be published. The frigate program is of top priority for the Greek navy, so i think this program will run very fast.
Also Greek Navy didn't have so much recent experience with British made ships, that happened only in the last years with the Super Vita fast attack crafts, 5 of which are built in Greek shipyards, the 3 first are already fully operational.

 

[dk706]

eliaslar great pdf thanks. The Heracles does look good on paper and especially good if someone considers its wait compaired to other systems but still i think that for a platform that will probably serve for the next 30 years an AESA radar that has more potential and is easier to upgrade in the future should be chosen.