Anti Stealth Radar
- Thread starter XEROX
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it should be a piece of junk
first of all you don't need a stealth aircraft to test how good your radar tracks stealthy targets. you can basically try to locate a small UAV from a distance, the power of radar is determined by how much of microwave is reflected by the target, so a target with high RCS reflects more wave than the target with lower RCS.
I do not completely believe in the fact that F-117 was actually shot down by modified Sa-3 or Sa-4 missile. The images of the downed F-117 clearly show bullet holes around the canopy. I have no doubt that it was brought down by Anti Aircraft Artillary. If it was Tor M1 or Buk M1 then that would have been a different story. The Serbians were just trying to use Sa-3 and the corresponding radar system as a threat so that the Nato would stop their bombing runs.
first of all you don't need a stealth aircraft to test how good your radar tracks stealthy targets. you can basically try to locate a small UAV from a distance, the power of radar is determined by how much of microwave is reflected by the target, so a target with high RCS reflects more wave than the target with lower RCS.
I do not completely believe in the fact that F-117 was actually shot down by modified Sa-3 or Sa-4 missile. The images of the downed F-117 clearly show bullet holes around the canopy. I have no doubt that it was brought down by Anti Aircraft Artillary. If it was Tor M1 or Buk M1 then that would have been a different story. The Serbians were just trying to use Sa-3 and the corresponding radar system as a threat so that the Nato would stop their bombing runs.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
It was bought down by AA and missiles fired over open sights. The F-117 was NOT brought down because it's "stealth failed" and a radar guided missile was able to target and hit it, but rather through poor planning and sloppy operational practices on the part of the American's and dodgy intell officers on the part of the French, equating to the Serbian Army discovering EXACTLY where the F-117 was going to be flying and when.
The end result was a lot of ordnance fired into the path of the F-117 at the right time and place. Guess what? They got lucky...
That shoot down is as much proof that "stealth" has been compromised or is somehow obsolete as the infamous "airex" where the IAF "won" decivisely over the USAF.
Both are sheer nonsense and a little bit of research even on this site alone can show to anybody actually wishing to know, the truth or some of it of these matters...
Investigator
New Member
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The debriefings on the shoot down are open source. They're referenced.
None of us. But you don't let comments that are a vehicle of a sleight of hand get by either....
As for the Carrier thread. There is a clear paucity of critical detail being provided.
Some of the solutions touted are rubbish, because they ignore what we already know can be scraped together from open source material and which requires a forensic effort rather than an aspirational comment about future capability. But if people choose to believe in some of the popular solutions then that is their right.
The beauty of the internet is that the typical response is, "if you can't counter my argument with detail thats available on the internet and able to be validated - then you're speaking rubbish" Blind freddy knows that this is cute.
eg One of the things that got up my goat with the press in Australia was that they sprayed the Collins as much as they could. Nobody in RAN could respond and nobody in ASC could either. So the myths took on a life of their own. Now what do I believe, do I believe the people I meet at UDT conferences who have been involved with the improvement program? do I ignore blackshoes who wargamed against them? do I ignore the company I used to work for that developed the signature management solutions? (I could stand up and rabbit on why I know that the Kilo is a relative bucket compared to other regional assets based on my own exp, but there's no point as how do I validate the detail? I'm not going to send my resume off to everyone). Do I ignore the snippets that appear in industry publications such as the Naval Sub League? The general public are fundamentally clueless, even the shadow defence minister called HMAS Manoora a "battleship"
But, the prev sources and commentary? None of the latter are on the internet. I sure as heck know what I base my judgement on.
There is a however a need to refer to sources within reason - and the fact that there is detailed info from the USAF, within industry rated material from publications like JED (Journal of Electronic Defence), or even from the AOC (ex Electronic Warfare Operators Assoc).
You can work out pretty quickly if people actually know what they're on about, or if they're trying it on. Anyone can quote articles, but sooner or later the traffic shows whether they actually understand what they're talking about or whether its just a hobby. (and there's room for hobbyists etc... but I'm creating a point of difference)
Hi, Can the Thales HA 100 Passive Air Surveillance Radar detect Stealth Aircraft's B-2 F-22?. I found this on Defense Technology International October. Hears a link
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/aw/dti1007/index.php?startpage=32
Thanks
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/aw/dti1007/index.php?startpage=32
Thanks
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
I've never come across any french officers being implicated, do you have links, I've read a lot of theories on the shoot down but not that one
It's mainly Forum scuttle but if you google search it a bit there is a lot about it seems to be nothing solid though, but I remember hearing about it in popular press of the time.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
This is the guy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1706341.stm
The F-117 shootdown was apparently the combined result of sloppy mission planning and box-kill tactics of the Serbs. Filling the sky with missiles. The bullet holes in the fuselage are from militia pelting the wreck with gunfire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1706341.stm
The F-117 shootdown was apparently the combined result of sloppy mission planning and box-kill tactics of the Serbs. Filling the sky with missiles. The bullet holes in the fuselage are from militia pelting the wreck with gunfire.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Actually quite clever systems. Somewhat limited by range and resolution. Wonder how they stand up to stand off power jamming, since they need to create a reference image to work. If that ref image changes, then how much do you detect?
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10644.pdf
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Everything I said above is available through open sourced material if you care to put the effort in.
Perhaps you should be honest, YOU just don't know.
Cheers
Interesting, seems he was handing over secrets before the conflict, nothing about the F117 shoot down though.
I did find this though
Heneghan, Tom. "Alleged NATO Spy Gave Key Info to Serbs -- Media." Reuters, 4 Nov. 1998.
"Le Monde and Europe 1 radio [on 4 November 1998] quoted a secret report by the DST counter-intelligence agency saying Major Pierre Bunel divulged a 25-page plan for possible NATO air strikes against Yugoslavia.... [The DST report] also said Bunel admitted to meeting [a] Yugoslav agent four times between July and October 1998 and answering questions about the number of NATO aircraft earmarked for strikes, the targets and dates chosen, France's position on the strikes and the possibility of a ground force deployment in Kosovo."
Dickey, Christopher, and Rod Nordland. "A Spy in the Ranks." Newsweek, 16 Nov. 1998. [http://www.newsweek.com]
French Maj. Pierre-Henri Bunel has been charged with spying on NATO for the Serbs. He is accused of having "given Belgrade top-secret information that included the targets for potential airstrikes at the height of the Kosovo crisis" in October 1998.
de Quetteville, Harry. "French Entente with Belgrade May Have Been Too Cordiale." Electronic Telegraph, 10 Mar. 2000. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk]
On 9 March 2000, "a spokesman at the French military headquarters denied allegations of a pro-Serb bias which have resurfaced following the claims of a spy in NATO during the Kosovo campaign.... But the doubts which predate the Bunel [French Maj. Pierre-Henri Bunel, who leaked NATO secrets to the Serbs in 1997-1998] case have persisted.... Louise Arbour, former head of the War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague, made those doubts clear in December 1997 by criticising France's record of arresting Serbs."
http://intellit.muskingum.edu/france_folder/francenatospy.html
I'd say it was good tactics and intel work in the immediate run up to the shootdown, rather than any information passed on the previous year.
I havent seen any linkage between the shootdown and the French traitor.
Seems they knew about him in nov 1998, surely operational planning would have changed before the conflict in light of the leak?
Radar Tech
Very Interesting Read till now. I am surprised to see that you some of you get personal so fast...regardless, interesting information.
The stealth radar is quite an interesting topic in countries that feel they could be at the receiving end of Stealth on slought. There is strong interest in both LPI systems, and systems that could detect low RCS systems with high BSR/PSR.
The problem is not just stealth aircraft, rather the rising tide of low observable UAVs.
There is much debate on the downing of the F-117, and among the propaganda, and deception, one really doesn't know. Stealth isnt really invisible to radar, rather, the Blip to scan ratio is so low that its almost impossible to track the targets.
Some VHF and HF radar builders are claiming that they can see the low observable aircrafts, and the marketing campaigns of ELINT/DF triangulation sensors are also strong (most of these aircraft are network centric, so the emissions can be tracked). I am sure that many radars are able to track the stealth aircraft, but most of them become victim of SEAD before the bombers come in.
Evasion versus detection is a continuously evolving field, and what Skunk works came up with 15 years ago, some are now able to track (just detection is meaningless).
Very Interesting Read till now. I am surprised to see that you some of you get personal so fast...regardless, interesting information.
The stealth radar is quite an interesting topic in countries that feel they could be at the receiving end of Stealth on slought. There is strong interest in both LPI systems, and systems that could detect low RCS systems with high BSR/PSR.
The problem is not just stealth aircraft, rather the rising tide of low observable UAVs.
There is much debate on the downing of the F-117, and among the propaganda, and deception, one really doesn't know. Stealth isnt really invisible to radar, rather, the Blip to scan ratio is so low that its almost impossible to track the targets.
Some VHF and HF radar builders are claiming that they can see the low observable aircrafts, and the marketing campaigns of ELINT/DF triangulation sensors are also strong (most of these aircraft are network centric, so the emissions can be tracked). I am sure that many radars are able to track the stealth aircraft, but most of them become victim of SEAD before the bombers come in.
Evasion versus detection is a continuously evolving field, and what Skunk works came up with 15 years ago, some are now able to track (just detection is meaningless).
Investigator
New Member
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A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Of course not. Particularly as someone who deals with "secret" level information on a daily basis.
They must. It's the main choice for the NZ Government...
Are you really saying that that detailed mission planning for the war, down to exact routes for F-117 flights had been done prior to October 1998, which was when Bunel gave the Serbs documents, that Bunel had access to information at that level (not alleged by the prosecutors), had handed over documents giving that level of detail (not alleged by the prosecutors), & that despite him being arrested at the beginning of November 1998 & confessing immediately, the exact routes planned before that date were used over 4 months later?
Come on, pull the other one! You know that's nonsense!
If a long wavelength radar such as JORN can detect a stealth aircraft at long range, and a short wavelength radar can detect a stealth aircraft at very short range then shouldn't a medium wavelength radar be able to detect an aircraft at medium range and provide some accuracy of a short wavelength radar?
I dont see why this wouldn't work.. It would be much more useful than JORN.
JORN could detect an aircraft somewhere in a 100 square mile area that is 1000 miles away JORN then passes the information to a medium wavelength radar that detects the aircrafts basic direction within a 10 square mile area 500 miles away.
The medium wavelength radar then sends the estimated location to the Wedgetail and fighter escorts.
Could work well.. We just need something to fit inbetween the JORN and Short wavelength radar.
I dont see why this wouldn't work.. It would be much more useful than JORN.
JORN could detect an aircraft somewhere in a 100 square mile area that is 1000 miles away JORN then passes the information to a medium wavelength radar that detects the aircrafts basic direction within a 10 square mile area 500 miles away.
The medium wavelength radar then sends the estimated location to the Wedgetail and fighter escorts.
Could work well.. We just need something to fit inbetween the JORN and Short wavelength radar.
DSTO/ADF trialled such a system for about 8 years and terminated the funding a few years back. It was trialled in one of our most sensitive and busiest traffic areas
It showed no "performance benefits to cost" over existing sensing capability.
Agree on that aspect finally after 3 years. It is very likely that if the Serbians knew the exact flight path of F-117s because NATO military planners were careless enough to use same bombing path day in and day out so Serbians modified their radar in such a way so that the microwaves were focused in on a particular direction in the sky then may be they did track down nighthawk as a tiny dot on their screen and fired their SA-3 at that target. F-117s flying without no ECMs cause there was no need to, combined with its slow speed then would be a very easy prey for SA-3 Goa.
ltdanjuly10
New Member
It is only a matter of time before anti-stealth radar is as common as regular radar, thankfully the USAF has recognized this. The F-22 and F/A-35 both are very capable aircraft even when not taking into account there stealth features. The next generation of Stealth bombers will likely be agile and/or very fast aircraft.
It is interesting to note that when it comes to B-2s, SOP is to fly the aircraft like its not even a stealth aircraft, Low level penetration. Unless of coarse you are flying over a country with little to no air defense capability in which case it doesn't matter.
It is interesting to note that when it comes to B-2s, SOP is to fly the aircraft like its not even a stealth aircraft, Low level penetration. Unless of coarse you are flying over a country with little to no air defense capability in which case it doesn't matter.