Israeli Air Force (IAF) strength

[Rich]

Rich, you know a lot of things which are wrong. Libya & Yemen (which was in the middle of a civil war) hardly had air forces in 1967. Certainly sent no aircraft, & I doubt they offered any.

So, "I know a lot of things that are wrong" but you cant offer any proof that anything you say is right?

I dont have any time to research this right now but my original comment about Israeli jets shot down were for the opening day. During the war they lost 46 airplanes to the Arabs 451.

Do you know how to say the word "R-E-S-E-A-R-C-H-" Swerve?

 

[Defender]

Rich... They were fighting 3rd-rate air forces. ...I've already emphasized the Israelis have a 1st-class air force but again its a contradictory emphasis when comparing it to Arab air forces.

The equivilents are the Turks in that area. Which is why the Israelis commerically train with them.

PS. The Turks are the 3rd largest holder of F-16's. Somewhat strangely the Egyptians are 4th.

 

[swerve]

So, "I know a lot of things that are wrong" but you cant offer any proof that anything you say is right?

I dont have any time to research this right now but my original comment about Israeli jets shot down were for the opening day. During the war they lost 46 airplanes to the Arabs 451.

Do you know how to say the word "R-E-S-E-A-R-C-H-" Swerve?

Ahh, substituting rudeness for argument. A sure sign you know you're wrong. Why not show more guts & admit it?

First day losses: yes, no argument there. What you wrote wasn't clear, but I see now that was what you were trying to say.

As for the rest, I've offered as much proof as you, & probably done more R E S E A R C H. Your memory is deceiving you again. Didn't you make a similar mistake with the F-105, thinking it had been operated by Thailand & a few European countries? I think what you're doing is mixing up different wars (1948, 1967, 1973), & perhaps confusing Egyptian fighters withdrawn from their intervention force in Yemen to meet the emergency at home with non-existent Yemeni fighters sent to Egypt. Much the same as the F-105s, where you probably confused aircraft operated in a country by the USAF with aircraft operated by a country.

BTW, how many of Libyas 8 F-5A & 2 F-5B do you think were sent to Egypt in 1967? nfloorl:

 

[contedicavour]

Libya in 1967 was still fully aligned with the West and was still a monarchy. It was only after the 1973 putsch / coup d'état by Gheddafi that Libya aligned with Nasser's Egypt and started arming itself massively.

Still, back to the main topic of the thread. IMO the IAF shouldn't be measured against neighboring air forces (it is clearly superior in training and equipment) but should rather be evaluated in its air-to-ground potential against guerrilla forces and their rockets, SAM batteries, fortified bunkers and the like.
It is still possible that the Eagles and Falcons will clash again with Syrian Migs, but their main mission is clearly supporting ground forces fighting against well armed irregular forces.

cheers

 

[swerve]

Libya in 1967 was still fully aligned with the West and was still a monarchy. It was only after the 1973 putsch / coup d'état by Gheddafi that Libya aligned with Nasser's Egypt and started arming itself massively....
cheers

1969, not 1973, but otherwise yes, that's right. Gaddafi told the British & US forces to leave (gave them a few months) & immediately went on a spending spree.

 

[contedicavour]

1969, not 1973, but otherwise yes, that's right. Gaddafi told the British & US forces to leave (gave them a few months) & immediately went on a spending spree.

Yep 1969 right thanks :redface

cheers

 

[Defender]

it is clearly superior in training and equipment

Thats certianly needs to be epmhasized but the contradiction or lack of knowledge is that others are too.

but should rather be evaluated in its air-to-ground potential against guerrilla forces and their rockets, SAM batteries, fortified bunkers and the like.

Again being British we wouldn't associate tackling ground attacks soley with an air strike epmhasis. Especially guerilla warefare. e.g. Most certianly we would evaulate what our regiments and indeed special services could and would do and rely on air strikes as something to fall back on.

Stratedgy, training, professionalism and record is what is important.

 

[contedicavour]

Again being British we wouldn't associate tackling ground attacks soley with an air strike epmhasis. Especially guerilla warefare. e.g. Most certianly we would evaulate what our regiments and indeed special services could and would do and rely on air strikes as something to fall back on.

Stratedgy, training, professionalism and record is what is important.

I agree with you, but I'm trying to focus on the contribution of the air force specifically to current warfare in southern Lebanon, Gaza, etc. If I'm not wrong the special services regiments operating from helicopters belong to the army in Israel, not the air force. All that the air force itself can thus do to help the army is reconnaissance and good old style smart bombing of anything that looks dangerous in the path of the army's Merkavas... without getting hit by SAMs.

cheers

 

[Rich]

Ahh, substituting rudeness for argument. A sure sign you know you're wrong. Why not show more guts & admit it?

Swerve you are another one that I'm putting on ignore. But before I do put you on ignore we'll see if you can backtrack first and see who introduced "rudeness" into this thread in the first place.

Rich, you know a lot of things which are wrong.

I see AD went into your post and edited stuff out so who knows what else you put in it. I haven't had time to research, admit, or not admit, anything because I worked all day.

Libya in 1967 was still fully aligned with the West and was still a monarchy. It was only after the 1973 putsch / coup d'état by Gheddafi that Libya aligned with Nasser's Egypt and started arming itself massively.

Its true I got my wars mixed up. I was thinking 1973 instead and that's what happens when one rushes a post before having to go to work. Thank you to contedicavour , "and I sure hope I proved my manhood to swerve". I was under the impression I had already done so in the shootouts Ive been involved in.

Those were the heady days of Pan-Arab'ism and Egypt and the rest had broad popular support across the Arab world, even if individual Govt.'s didnt participate.
Lebanon lost one airplane during the war of 1967. I dont know, if it was only "one" should I have not included it?
http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/6daywar.htm

Six Day War - Estimated Aircraft losses

Country Number
Egypt 338
Syria 61
Jordan 29
Iraq 23
Lebanon 1
Approx Total Arab 452
Israel 36

Maybe next time Swerve you can make a valid point without first insulting the poster your talking to. Contedicavour and Defender thank you for your input.

 

[metro]

I agree with you, but I'm trying to focus on the contribution of the air force specifically to current warfare in southern Lebanon, Gaza, etc. If I'm not wrong the special services regiments operating from helicopters belong to the army in Israel, not the air force. All that the air force itself can thus do to help the army is reconnaissance and good old style smart bombing of anything that looks dangerous in the path of the army's Merkavas... without getting hit by SAMs.

cheers

Helicopters, for the most part, do belong to Israel's army.
In Gaza, the incompetent (IMO) gov't won't let ground forces go in--except special units on foot.
They pretty much use UAVs and Apaches or Cobras or Cobras, way out over the Sea. They've used F-16s a few times recently to flatten buildings where Hamas leaders live/lived and some areas where kassams are launched from. Unless they are targeting someone specifically (like in a car), which is still hard to do, in the most dencely populated area on earth they usually call ahead when they are taking out a building or "metal workshop," to tell people it would be wise to leave.

Even though Israel has been getting "Kassamed" daily, the people are pissed but the Israeli gov't doesn't want to get involved in whatever is going on in Gaza. Every once in a while, after taking a volly of Kassams, they'll break the sound barrier over Gaza throughout the night.

In the Lebanese war, I understand that Israeli F-16s pretty much used all their bombs in the first few days--maybe week--of the war. But they were able to take out almost all of the long range "Syrian-Iranian" Missiles in the first few hours. IMO, they should have taken out the Iranian embassy and maybe Nasrallah.

There was a long analysis written after the war about abandoning the over reliance on the "US/Israeli" (as it was termed) Stand off fighting. The conclusion was, "Take land quickly and hold. Take more land quickly and hold...etc."

 

[metro]

Rich... They were fighting 3rd-rate air forces. ...I've already emphasized the Israelis have a 1st-class air force but again its a contradictory emphasis when comparing it to Arab air forces.

The equivilents are the Turks in that area. Which is why the Israelis commerically train with them.

PS. The Turks are the 3rd largest holder of F-16's. Somewhat strangely the Egyptians are 4th.

I think Israel has a 1st class AF too, not only because of the equipment, but the amount of time they train.

The thing is, Israel has had several real world fights between it's AF and others. Usually we USAF don't have much to engage in the air... maybe chasing an Iraqi plane to Iran The balkins may have been a better example, but even there we have such a technological advantage, I think it's greater than anything Israel has had.

Many have also said Russians were flying several aircraft in the '67 and '73 Arab-Israeli wars. I don't know? Regardless, a war is a war and unless you have the abilty to project your power accross an ocean, your opponant is who he is.

Like someone said, Israel can't lose a war. Therefore, for them it comes down to that old question:
If two identicle men are 10ft apart, and are pointing identicle revolvers at each other, who has the best chance of winning?:nutkick

That's pretty much the way Israel looks at things, and the answer to that question is the doctrine they follow.

 

[swerve]

Swerve you are another one that I'm putting on ignore. But before I do put you on ignore we'll see if you can backtrack first and see who introduced "rudeness" into this thread in the first place.

I see AD went into your post and edited stuff out so who knows what else you put in it. I haven't had time to research, admit, or not admit, anything because I worked all day.

Its true I got my wars mixed up. I was thinking 1973 instead and that's what happens when one rushes a post before having to go to work. Thank you to contedicavour , "and I sure hope I proved my manhood to swerve". I was under the impression I had already done so in the shootouts Ive been involved in.

Those were the heady days of Pan-Arab'ism and Egypt and the rest had broad popular support across the Arab world, even if individual Govt.'s didnt participate.
Lebanon lost one airplane during the war of 1967. I dont know, if it was only "one" should I have not included it?
http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/6daywar.htm

Maybe next time Swerve you can make a valid point without first insulting the poster your talking to. Contedicavour and Defender thank you for your input.

I don't know what ADs ed was, though I'd like to. As far as I remember, that's all I wrote.

A single Lebanese aircraft loss does not mean that Lebanon took part in the war. Switzerland lost plenty of aircraft in WW2, just defending its neutrality. It's not unknown for non-participating nations to lose aircraft in wars in which they are not participants, due to them being in the wrong place at the wrong time, e.g. the 1971 India-Pakistan warin which the RCAF & USAF lost a plane each. Unfortunate, but doesn't indicate the involvement of either country in the war.

As for the "insult": well, if you state you "know" (no qualification, no caveat, no "I believe", or "I think"), then you must be prepared to be corrected in similar terms. That was no insult. It was an appropriate response to an arrogant (though I accept, sincerely mistaken) false statement. You do know a lot, but you think you know even more, & this is not the first time you've confidently asserted something which was wrong. It's irritating, & sometimes I respond in an irritated manner to things which irritate me. Maybe it's a fault, but in this case, for you to criticise it carries heavy overtones of pots & kettles.

Agreed, there was plenty of verbal support in the name of Pan-Arabism, & some actual physical support (e.g. the Algerian aircraft I mentioned), but not what you claimed, & I was replying to what you'd written.

As for "proving manhood" - not exactly appropriate to exchanges via words on a screen. Is that really how you see it? Is that why your admission of error is so grudging? You see it as a sign of weakness? I'd see it as a sign of strength, to be able to gracefully retract when shown to be wrong.

Mod edit: I think it was just a formatting issue. If I delete text I usually explain it like this.

Cheers

AD.

 

[merocaine]

Thank you to contedicavour , "and I sure hope I proved my manhood to swerve". I was under the impression I had already done so in the shootouts Ive been involved in.

Sorry to jump in like this, but are you for real? shootouts? are they still called shootouts?!

 

[f-22fan12]

Maybe you are basing your opinion on the poor performance of Arab airforces during conflicts with Israel. I would not wholly blame the Soviet equipments. I would rather blame poor Arab tactics and the lack of proper and realistic training.

Thats one thing but also didn't the USAF shoot Soviet planes down in the NATO intervention in Bosnia or am I wrong?

 

[swerve]

Thats one thing but also didn't the USAF shoot Soviet planes down in the NATO intervention in Bosnia or am I wrong?

A bit difficult to shoot Soviet planes down. The intervention began 2 years after the dissolution of the USSR.

The only aircraft shot down by NATO aircraft in the intervention in Bosnia were Serbian. No Russian or other aircraft.

 

[nyrhex]

They don't mention that the majority of IAF aircraft kills were aircraft they bombed on the ground...

actually the 452 jets destroyed on the ground in the 1967 six day war are not included in the total number of killes, 687 were shoot down in godfights, Israel lost 23 and 1 crashed for an unknown reason, could have been shoot down.

aircrafts shoot down in dogfights(not including aorcrafts destroyed on the ground or by anti-aircraft weapons):

war/israel/arabforces

independence/1(?)/18
Suez Crisis/0/7
six day war/12/60
War of Attrition/4/111
Yom Kippur War/5/277
1982 Lebanon War(Syria)/0/88
between wars/2/126

so you see, the majority of aircrafts were shoot down in dogfights, not bombed on the ground.

 

[T-95]

actually the 452 jets destroyed on the ground in the 1967 six day war are not included in the total number of killes, 687 were shoot down in godfights, Israel lost 23 and 1 crashed for an unknown reason, could have been shoot down.

aircrafts shoot down in dogfights(not including aorcrafts destroyed on the ground or by anti-aircraft weapons):

war/israel/arabforces

independence/1(?)/18
Suez Crisis/0/7
six day war/12/60
War of Attrition/4/111
Yom Kippur War/5/277
1982 Lebanon War(Syria)/0/88
between wars/2/126

so you see, the majority of aircrafts were shoot down in dogfights, not bombed on the ground.

Doesn't Egypt have gun-camera footage of 73 Israeli planes being shot down in the Yom Kippur War??? Just cuz Israel says it didn't happened doesn't mean it didn't.

 

[nyrhex]

Doesn't Egypt have gun-camera footage of 73 Israeli planes being shot down in the Yom Kippur War??? Just cuz Israel says it didn't happened doesn't mean it didn't.

i think your mixing it with gun-camera footage from 73', out of the IAF's 102 jets shoot down(35% of its jets) only 5 were shot down in dogfights.

 

[T-95]

i think your mixing it with gun-camera footage from 73', out of the IAF's 102 jets shoot down(35% of its jets) only 5 were shot down in dogfights.

How many Israeli planes did Egypt shoot down in 1973 in A2A engagements?

 

[nyrhex]

How many Israeli planes did Egypt shoot down in 1973 in A2A engagements?

Read my first comment, i clearly stated 5.

out of the 23 jets Israel lost to dogfights in its history, 5 were shot down in 1973, 4 were shot down by Egypt, 1 i belive by Syria but im not sure, could have been Egypt's as well...