Would a V22 tilt rotor AEW narror the diffrences between fixed and helicopter AEW

[harryriedl]

i was wondering weather a the AEW of the V22 project would be a good AEW platform as it seems perfect for a pocket aircraft carrier platform or even an LPD could use it to give a blanket coverage of areas to project power. how much worse than a E-2 hawkeye is it

what are the advantage or disavantage of this platform
[hope it makes sences]

 

[Sea Toby]

I am fond of helicopters, they are much cheaper than tilt-rotors. While a tilt rotor on paper has more speed and range, the whole purpose of AEW is to provide over the horizon look down radar coverage. To be quite frank, I am of the belief that the tilt-rotor has been an absolute complete disaster.

For a light carrier a helicopter is sufficient providing hundreds of miles of extended radar coverage. The British have used Sea Kings in the past and in the future are looking at using Merlins. The AEW sensors of the Sea Kings are similiar to their land based Nimrod AEWs.

 

[swerve]

The British have used Sea Kings in the past and in the future are looking at using Merlins. The AEW sensors of the Sea Kings are similiar to their land based Nimrod AEWs.

The Nimrod AEW was cancelled before development was completed, back in the 1980s, & instead we bought E-3s for land-based AEW. The radars fitted to the development Nimrod AEW were far too large for a Sea King.

The original radar in the Sea King AEW 2 was the Searchwater, used in the Nimrod ASW & maritime recce aircraft. It's now been replaced by the Searchwater 2000, a version of which is used in the new Nimrod MRA.4 (rebuilt MR.2) maritime recce & strike aircraft. So yes, it uses a similar radar to a Nimrod, but not the Nimrod AEW.

 

[Sea Toby]

Yes, you are correct. Never-the-less the US Navy has not implemented any tilt-rotor AEW program whatsoever. Considering the length of the tilt-rotor development program, it could be decades before any tilt-rotor AEW program evolved. Therefore, the only suitable VSTOL AEW aircraft available is the British Searchwater Sea King helicopters, eventually to be replaced probably by Merlin helicopters. While they are not replacements for land based AWACS or Wedgetail, or sea based Hawkeyes, they do provide an extended radar range capacity.

 

[Jtimes2]

i was wondering weather a the AEW of the V22 project would be a good AEW platform as it seems perfect for a pocket aircraft carrier platform or even an LPD could use it to give a blanket coverage of areas to project power. how much worse than a E-2 hawkeye is it

what are the advantage or disavantage of this platform
[hope it makes sences]

I don't think it would be cost effective; given the high flying hours of your typical AEW combined with the high initial cost and even higher per-hour maintenance costs of a tilt-wing.

The trend seems to be towards ever-shrinking conformal arrays lately (think of the Aussie wedgetail project or the new Chinese Harbin AEW) combined with ever-shrinking onboard processors and data stations, so in the next 20 years I'd expect to see a Seahawk-sized helo be able to fulfill the role the E-2 currently performs.

I wish I still had the pic but in the early 2000s the USN investigated and rejected a modified S-3 Viking AEW. It had a conformal array shaped like a "V" coming from the wingtips......it looked like a crazy biplane! I think they are figuring on replacing the Hawkeye with a helo of some type now.

 

[harryriedl]

so everybody is going to helos now? sounds like the migration helo ASW from planes. also one other question why did the french keep the Alizé till 1999 when almost all the large navyes had changed to helo based ASW?

 

[Sea Toby]

The French acquired Hawkeyes for their new carrier, Charles de Gaulle. They even had to lengthen the landing area a bit to land the Hawkeyes safely. The French carriers have catapults, unlike the British and other nations with smaller light carriers.

 

[contedicavour]

I am fond of helicopters, they are much cheaper than tilt-rotors. While a tilt rotor on paper has more speed and range, the whole purpose of AEW is to provide over the horizon look down radar coverage. To be quite frank, I am of the belief that the tilt-rotor has been an absolute complete disaster.

For a light carrier a helicopter is sufficient providing hundreds of miles of extended radar coverage. The British have used Sea Kings in the past and in the future are looking at using Merlins. The AEW sensors of the Sea Kings are similiar to their land based Nimrod AEWs.

"The British are looking at using Merlins" => actually it's more than looking at the Italian Navy has 4 EH-101 AEW operational aboard the Garibaldi and soon the Cavour, so I would be surprised if the Royal Navy didn't have any.

cheers

 

[Wild Weasel]

Somehow, I highly doubt that the USN would replace it's Hawkeyes with a helo-type. The E-2C has significant advantages of speed, range, ceiling, crew size and facilities, avionic space, and a larger, more powerful antenna than any previous or proposed vertical take-off aircraft.
Of these, maximum ceiling is most vital, as the maximum sensor coverage, and range of the antenna is limited by LOS. ( IE. the curvature of the earth. )
Naturally, the E-2C operating at it's nominal mission altitude in excess of 10,000m would be much less limited than a Seaking, or Merlin in this regard.
In addition, the very high operational altitudes provides an AEW&C aircraft with much longer endurance/range, and an increased measure of protection from some air defences.

For a smaller STOV/L vessel, such a helo AEW/C4ISTAR platform may be sufficient, or even ideal- but if you have the advantage of an enormous flight deck such as those of the USN's fleet carriers, then it is probably better to use that space to launch and recover larger, more capable platforms.

Alternatively, I suppose it could also be used to carry large numbers of AEW&C4ISTAR UAV's- that when operating in networked group could function as well, or perhaps even exceed the performance of an E-2C.
Of course, they may not be as well suited for some other roles that could be performed by a larger, multi-role platform.
Perhaps a mix should be considered.
But I don't want to digress much farther from this thread's topic.

I have often wondered whether the missons of E-2, C-2, and to some extent the Viking might be replaced by varients of the C-27J, CN-235, or CN-239 airframes.
Additionally, such an aircraft might also be able to provide the USN with a carrier-based reconniassance, and surveilance capability similat to that of the EP-3, and the RC-135.
Finally, the greater size and range of these large fixed-wing types
may prove useful as a special operations, and gunship platform for amphibious, and/or US SOCOM operations.

At first glance they seem rather large, but then again I'm sure nearly everyone has seen pictures of the Hercules that had recovered, and launched from a USN CV during the Viet Nam conflict.
It is possible. The question is, is it affordable, or really even necessary to replace the Hawkeyes at this time?

 

[harryriedl]

i understand the avantage of the hawkeye i just thought that the v22 would even the odds for the little carrirer as it would have an incriesed celling and a longer range.

 

[Wild Weasel]

Yes, it possibly could. And on a smaller ship, it may be the best option for the forseeable future. I've given it some thought, and done a bit of on-line research, but as yet haven't found much that could even be considered conceptual.

The V-22 must be convertable for storage aboard ship, particularly so for use on surface combattants such as the Japanese Navy's DDH's.
The fit of a large, delicate, dorsal antenna fairing may be difficult to build into an already extremely complicated airframe.
Moreover, we must consider the aerodynamic ramifications of signicantly increasing the size and weight of the V-22's vertical take-off configuration in a naval enviroment, from a small flight deck.
And given the tragic disasters that have plagued the program since it's beginning, you might also have to be concerned with the pucker-factor involved with adding any major role, and strutural changes to the Osprey.

She has not been the most forgiving aircraft thus far. hwell

 

[isthvan]

Well IIRC USMC considered V-22 version whit installed Swedish Erieye during 1990. I remember seeing mockup of that combo… I think that this combination would be ideal for small STOVL carriers with a ski ramp… This would definitely provide much more capable AEW platform then any AEW helicopter…

 

[harryriedl]

in my opinion it would be good with ships like Cavor of the QE2 class carrirer as they are large but STOVL carriers as they would seem a better fit for the larger carrirer.
it would also give more freedom to the USMC as they wouldn't be relinet on the USN for AEW support

 

[akj]

Isnt the V-22 program cancelled?

 

[bd popeye]

V-22 program

Isnt the V-22 program cancelled?

No. Despite al the set backs and crashes the program is goping full speed ahead.

Your latest V-22 news...

http://www.navair.navy.mil/v22/

 

[RubiconNZ]

Jet Powered

Are there any designs or plans that would allow the V-22 Props or rotors be replaced with a jet engine, what issues would effect this development?

 

[rjmaz1]

Are there any designs or plans that would allow the V-22 Props or rotors be replaced with a jet engine, what issues would effect this development?

Turboprops are jet engines with a prop at the front.

The props provide roughly three quarters of the lift and the jet provides the rest. To replace them with jets you'd need an engine 4 times as big. You'll now melt the aircraft carrier surface and hot air will hit the ground and get sucked into the engine.

The Props help disperse the hot air so it doesn't go back into the engine.

However you could replace them with ducted fans, two small diameter ducted fans like on the JSF would provide the same lift that the current V-22's have.

 

[TimmyC]

"The British are looking at using Merlins" => actually it's more than looking at the Italian Navy has 4 EH-101 AEW operational aboard the Garibaldi and soon the Cavour, so I would be surprised if the Royal Navy didn't have any.

cheers

Do you have any info on the different abilities between the Sea King AEW mk7 of the Royal Navy & the EH101 AEW of the Italian Navy? Such as max ceiling and endurance at altitude? Also a comparison between the searchwater2000 & the Italian model?

Much appreciated..

 

[European]

Do you have any info on the different abilities between the Sea King AEW mk7 of the Royal Navy & the EH101 AEW of the Italian Navy? Such as max ceiling and endurance at altitude? Also a comparison between the searchwater2000 & the Italian model?

Much appreciated..

I believe it's enough to say that the new AW-101 HEW of italian navy are replacing the Sea King AEW of italian navy.
Infos are not officially yet released about the AW-101 HEW.
The only available informations are that the radar is the Eliradar HEW-784 from the italian Galilo Avionica.
The max operating altitude for the chopper is 4500 meters and the radar horizon can reach 250-270km
It's not like an expensive E2C (range over 400km), but it's not bad for a helicopter.
At the moment AW-101 HEW is not in RN requirement.