Why does no other country operate the A-10?

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Jup and I always thought that it is pure bullshit not to take the Mauser and replace it with a counterweight. They did not even planned to use the space for something else.
I mean..the gun is for sure the most cheap thing on this plane. :rolleyes:
They didn't replace the gun as they use/used it as the ballast. The savings was on ammo, maintenance and training.

But weird indeed! ;)

It will be interesting to see how the Typhoon performs in Afghanistan...
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
They did not even planned to use a counterweight but to just not use the gun?
That is so... :lul :eek:nfloorl:
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The reason I ran out of ammo... the Vulcan can't penetrate squat. I remember on one occasion I had delievered my ordinance to the primary and secondary targets and was hunting for convoys, my wingman spotted the targets that run for half a mile. The Taliban forces going to fight the Northern Alliance had a old Soviet APC in the lead so I switched to guns and started my strafing run. I had my barrel on him for at least 4 seconds, he came to a halt but the occupants were seen running out! It was like I was firing a mini-gun at a click.
Our jet fighters carry a 20mm vulcan correct?
What type of projectiles are carried for a ground combat role, and would you use the same projectile when engaging enemy aircraft.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Our jet fighters carry a 20mm vulcan correct?
What type of projectiles are carried for a ground combat role, and would you use the same projectile when engaging enemy aircraft.
There are HEI and API rounds that are anti personell/aircraft and anti-armor rounds respectfully. We have a SAPHEI round that is a higher velocity all aspect round but it is rather dangerous to operate as it misfires a bit. Commander NAVCENT/5th fleet didn't like the error rates of SAPHEI rounds so they gave us the old M50 line during OEF. I'm not sure if USAF continued using the PGU-28 SAPHEI... last time I heard they were really miffed with the 80x failure rate of acceptable limits.
 

Ths

Banned Member
A congratulation to Big E from me as well.

About the A-10:
Let's evaluate it in the tactical context it is meant to be used in - at least today. An argument setting the A-10 up against the Apache is nonsense, as they are expected to cooperate closely.
This team is perfect if you - in a situation of reasonable control of the air - locate an enemy formation of say btn size. It may be an armoured divisional reserve or a supply column. This means this team will have to bring a bit of everything to the party - and most importantly give mutual support.
The Apache approach under the treetops the A-10 just above it. The A-64 first job is to take out MANPADS and everything with a barrel that points upward. This leaves the A-10 free to chose - at relative leisure - from its assortment of unpleasantries to destroy the main targets - especially as they can carry more and at pinch run back for more. But importantly the enemy is caught in the crossfire between the A-10 and the Apache. If it is softskinned the gun is handy on chopper and on A-10 - if is harder there are tool for that as well.
That would have been the scenario in Kosovo, if the plinking of armoured vehikles hadn't worked so well (I KNOW a lot of dummies were hit; but it killed the mobility of the Serbian army/militia).
In this scenario we can expect the enemy to try and rescue their assets, and the first ones on the scene is liable to be his helicopters, as their "fast movers" are pinned down (more or less literaly) by the F-15's. Hence the Sidewinders.

Now in Afghanistan it is different - mainly because the above mentioned phase has been won. The Taliban are not able to mount organised wasrfare on btn-level. We are basically talking mobbing up action - no disrespect intended as it is dangerous, slow and dirty soldiering.

In this situation the A-10 is being abused, but it happens to be on hand - just as a B-1 is on hand and can respond quickly in the event of an ambush: Using a strategic bomber to take out a hastily erected mortar position was NOT in the design specification.
The other side is also doing things that isn't in the book: Attacking light infantry in prepared position with light infantry assault.
It was found out in WW1 that that is not a very good idea. Light infantry is so suppliable that they in principel can stay and fight there forever.

The advantage of the A-10 in this scenario is that it is supplyable - it can use airstrips a C-130 can land on. I won't mention the Apache as it is heavier on the supply, maintainance side than I like.

Personally I've for long argued for a replacement of the A-10 allieviating the handicaps it has today:
1. More power to get out of trouble.
2. Avionics to work in the integratred enviroment - it is practical to get the info on the headup, instead of jotting coordinates down on the canopy with a marker - the cap has a disconcerting tendency to roll into an awquard corner during a bit of rough turning.
3. Avionics to accept and use the newer PGM ammo.

Then you might argue that we end up with a very conventional fighter/attack - but I like the simple production and and the ability to operate from dirt strips.

To decide pro or con a lot of numbers have to be crunched, but eventually it will come down to the question of a suitable engine (my guess).
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Personally I've for long argued for a replacement of the A-10 allieviating the handicaps it has today:
1. More power to get out of trouble.
2. Avionics to work in the integratred enviroment - it is practical to get the info on the headup, instead of jotting coordinates down on the canopy with a marker - the cap has a disconcerting tendency to roll into an awquard corner during a bit of rough turning.
3. Avionics to accept and use the newer PGM ammo.

Then you might argue that we end up with a very conventional fighter/attack - but I like the simple production and and the ability to operate from dirt strips.

To decide pro or con a lot of numbers have to be crunched, but eventually it will come down to the question of a suitable engine (my guess).
I think the concept of NLOS systems with PGMs and JDAMs can actually replace A-10s. I ask why risk them when we have systems that can deliver deadlier firepower with less risk. I think with the advent of sensor fused weapons the day of the dedicated tank buster is over. All the money spent to upgrade the A-10 to carry JDAMs is just a pathetic attempt to keep an obsolete system in the fray. There is no point to risk our pilots to MANPADs and AAA fire anymore.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Some people say the A-10 will be a dead duck when it really depends on the mission it performs as well as the technology level of the war it is fighting.

The main thing about the US is that it has alot of overlap between the aircraft as alot of aircraft can do similar roles.

In the first gulf war the A-10 would not operate without F-15's clearing the sky of fighters. The F-15's could not operate without an aircraft taking out the SAM sites. Nearly all the aircraft depend on another aircraft to survive as the enemy was fairly high tech. However all it required was the use of the right aircraft for certain situations to get the upper hand over the enemy and make it a walk in the park.

The Apache, A-10 and F-16 all perform similar missions but some platforms perform certain aspects better. You can directly compare these aircraft as they often perform the same mission. If the enemy is so low tech you could use any of those platforms to defeat the enemy and come out on top. However if the enemy is good then you must pick the right platform else you may get shot down.

If the enemy had no fighters, anti aircraft guns or manpads then the A-10 could have performed every mission itself from dropping bombs on baghdad to destroying enemy ground forces.

That is why the country must analyse what potential enemy threats they may encounter and what missions they will have to perform. This gives them a good idea on what aircraft they should purchase and area's where they are currently lacking.

Australia is going in the wrong direction with the RAAF.

1) Patrolling and Controlling the oceans does not require a stealthy single engine aircraft like the JSF.

2) Small regional conflicts such as East Timor does not require stealth precision strike JSF's when its only militia on the ground with AK47's.

3) The war on terror or on a global scale does not require Australia to provide air dominance or precision strike. The air is secured by the US long before we get there so our JSF's would be useless.

4) Australian soldiers deployed overseas would rather have close air support within minutes rather than having to wait up to an hour for US aircraft to arrive. Having 24 hour close air support dedicated just for our soldiers is not taking any compromises. We cannot afford to buy half the amount of JSF's required to provide 24 hour close air support for our soldiers. Cheaper aircraft can do a better job and could be bought in bigger numbers to provide 24 hour coverage all year round.

The only war the JSF would be good for is an all out war with Indonesia, this is the least likely conflict. The other four missions above are required right now and will be required in the future. The biggest military purchase in Australian history is buying us an Aircraft that does not perform any of those missions.

Three squadrons for A-10's for Australia. The first being deployed oversea's, the second just returned from overseas and the third preparing to be deployed.

The money left over can buy us shiny JSF's to act as a deterant just like our F-111's have done for years. Maybe our JSF's might actually see combat unlike the F-111's, howevers its unlikely that there will ever be a war with Indonesia so that probably wont happen. So our JSF's can sit around looking pretty while the A-10's do all the hard work.

Atleast the C-17 and Wedgetail purchase is a step in the right direction.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
I think the concept of NLOS systems with PGMs and JDAMs can actually replace A-10s. I ask why risk them when we have systems that can deliver deadlier firepower with less risk. I think with the advent of sensor fused weapons the day of the dedicated tank buster is over. All the money spent to upgrade the A-10 to carry JDAMs is just a pathetic attempt to keep an obsolete system in the fray. There is no point to risk our pilots to MANPADs and AAA fire anymore.
Reading reports and interviews of soldiers on the ground who are under attack, B1b flies overhead and the enemy keeps fighting the B1b cant take a clear shot. 10 minutes later the A-10's rock up flying 100 feet off the ground and the physical presence causes the enemy to retreat. All the interviews that mention the A-10 always suggest that its the physical presence of the aircraft that wins the battle.

The A-10 is designed to take AAA fire or get hit by a MANPAD and still bring the pilot home, it significantly reduced the risk. Not to mention the amount of MANPADs and AAA systems in Afganistan, fairly low tech environment really. Of course they wouldn't send A-10's into Baghdad on the first day of the gulf war as that would be suicide.

Just like how the Apache had its missions revised as it bit off more than it could chew and results in severe losses. The A-10 has not had severe losses to change its mission i can provide CAS and survive in a fairly hostile environment.

Dropping a 1000lb bomb on the enemy to support your soldiers can only do so much. In Afganistan the A-10's have taken very little enemy fire so why not get up close and personal with the enemy as the phycological effects are much greater.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
I think MoD has forseen the future and that is why JSF is being purchased. Of course it's not practical for jungle guerillas (that's why MoD ordered Eurocopter) but there are larger enemies on the horizon RAAF must face. I think MoD takes my stance on the future of RAAF CAS... PGMs. Better to buy aircraft that can do it all rather than wasting your money on a specialty aircraft that, as I said before, only the US can afford in a complete force structure. The ADF is not a microcosm of the US military and it should procure items with dual uses.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Australia is going in the wrong direction with the RAAF.

1) Patrolling and Controlling the oceans does not require a stealthy single engine aircraft like the JSF.

2) Small regional conflicts such as East Timor does not require stealth precision strike JSF's when its only militia on the ground with AK47's.

3) The war on terror or on a global scale does not require Australia to provide air dominance or precision strike. The air is secured by the US long before we get there so our JSF's would be useless.

4) Australian soldiers deployed overseas would rather have close air support within minutes rather than having to wait up to an hour for US aircraft to arrive. Having 24 hour close air support dedicated just for our soldiers is not taking any compromises. We cannot afford to buy half the amount of JSF's required to provide 24 hour close air support for our soldiers. Cheaper aircraft can do a better job and could be bought in bigger numbers to provide 24 hour coverage all year round.

The only war the JSF would be good for is an all out war with Indonesia, this is the least likely conflict. The other four missions above are required right now and will be required in the future. The biggest military purchase in Australian history is buying us an Aircraft that does not perform any of those missions.

Three squadrons for A-10's for Australia. The first being deployed oversea's, the second just returned from overseas and the third preparing to be deployed.

The money left over can buy us shiny JSF's to act as a deterant just like our F-111's have done for years. Maybe our JSF's might actually see combat unlike the F-111's, howevers its unlikely that there will ever be a war with Indonesia so that probably wont happen. So our JSF's can sit around looking pretty while the A-10's do all the hard work.

Atleast the C-17 and Wedgetail purchase is a step in the right direction.
Ok, first off, there will be NO purchase of the F-22, i now its not mentioned, but just a step ahead of any argument, secondly, half of Asia will have the SU-27 within the next 10-15 years, if one of them turns rogue and starts bombing the crap out of its neighbour, we need to be able to protect any regional allies and protect deployed forces.
Thirdly, the FA-18s were in Afghanistan And Iraq at first strike along with USAF and RAF units, so they would be deployed in your point 3

The RAAF could use the A-10, and 3 squadrons would be nice, very nice, and it would be in conjunction to any JSF Squadrons, because we are getting them. The Shiny JSF will eventually lose its gloss, but hell it will be made to work here, not just some photo op at Air shows.

The JSF is to be a deterent, and act as a combat fighter if the deterent fails. This is called Advanced planning, and is what the RAAF are looking at, of course some people have other ideas, but thats what things like this are for, and the RAAF would have evaluated this before signing on.
JSF Coming our way, and an A-10 trailling behind would be good.
 

momtina

New Member
BOMB PROOFING HUMVEES and SHIPS

oN TELIVISION THEY SHOWED WALLS BEING BOMB PROOFED AND ACTUALLY SHOWED IT WORKED. They sprayed LINEX a produdt for truck beds sprayed it on walls it worked. WHY NOT humvees and other equipment and Navy ships??? God Bless hope this helps someone out there.:)
 

Big-E

Banned Member
oN TELIVISION THEY SHOWED WALLS BEING BOMB PROOFED AND ACTUALLY SHOWED IT WORKED. They sprayed LINEX a produdt for truck beds sprayed it on walls it worked. WHY NOT humvees and other equipment and Navy ships??? God Bless hope this helps someone out there.:)
It is the same as painting it with rubber... think about it. Also it does not bomb proof anything.
 
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icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hmm, and how exactly do you think that some magical instant spray made for a Terror fearing moron is gunna stop an IED or Boat laden with explosives from destroying what a Thick armoured plate can not, you cannot solve every problem in a can, case in point, cheese in a can and BO:rolleyes:
 

swerve

Super Moderator
They did not even planned to use a counterweight but to just not use the gun?
That is so... :lul :eek:nfloorl:
The MoD beancounters decided to remove the gun to save money. They were told it would need to be replaced by a counterweight, which would cost money to design & integrate, & we were contractually required to pay a large part of the price of the guns even if we didn't accept them, so it was no more expensive to use the guns as ballast than to make up dummy weights, & far simpler. So they said "OK, you can have the guns, but we'll save money by not letting you fire them".

The amount of money saved was not significant. The time & effort spent on the review cost money. And now the guns are going to be used, so it was all a waste.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
The MoD beancounters decided to remove the gun to save money. They were told it would need to be replaced by a counterweight, which would cost money to design & integrate, & we were contractually required to pay a large part of the price of the guns even if we didn't accept them, so it was no more expensive to use the guns as ballast than to make up dummy weights, & far simpler. So they said "OK, you can have the guns, but we'll save money by not letting you fire them".

The amount of money saved was not significant. The time & effort spent on the review cost money. And now the guns are going to be used, so it was all a waste.
I somehow have the impression that this is a MoD classic.

Penny wise...
 

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Just a few short comments on points brought up in several posts.

1 A-37 Dragonfly – This a similar aircraft have proved their worth in counter-insurgence and anti-bandit operations. This is an example where cheap and cheerful is best.

2 PGU-28 SAPHEI – USAF have withdrawn this ammunition from general use and are currently conducting trials to establish why it causes an unacceptable rate of mis-fires.

3 A64 Apache – There are problems with using this helicopter in Afghanistan above and beyond those usually encountered, mainly because the country is high and hot. This limits the load that can be carried and also results in higher maintenance costs.

4 AC130 Gunship – Wikipedia currently states that there are 8 AC130H and 13 AC130U Gunships; I think this is incorrect as one AC130U was lost in Afghanistan a 3-4 years ago. Funds have been provided for four additional aircraft to be manufactured. Because when attacking the aircraft has to fly a left hand circle to bring the cone of fire to a point, the aircraft is vulnerable to ground to air missiles, so most missions are carried out at night. (The aircraft is equipped with enhanced counter-measures to depend against MANPADS). Operating in mountainous terrain also can be difficult as the weapons need to be fired at an angle limited by the maximum roll angle of the aircraft (the guns can be depressed but not very far). For these reasons modifications are being considered to enable attacks to be carried out from an offset position and allow weapons to be delivered more vertically.

Several weapons are being evaluated, but the one that I favour is the GBU-44/B Viper Strike, this is a laser-guided variant of the NG Brilliant Anti-Tank (BAT) munition. It is small and weighs only 20kg.

5 Eurofighter Typhoon Gun – Most of what has been posted on this thread is correct. Originally the gun was specified, the MoD wanted it omitted to save, money, ballast was required and would be expensive to design, install and qualify, so they decided to fit the gun, but not use it and finally have agreed to use the weapon.

However, there is a little more to this saga. The environmental specification for some of the equipment on the aircraft (particularly for items only required by the RAF), included anticipated vibration envelops for equipment fitted in the forward section of the fuselage. This spec included “spikes” to take into account gunfire. The equipment was supposed to survive one level of vibration and operate to specification at a lower level. There was a get out clause, if when real vibration data became available it was found to be above the values included in the spec, then all bets were off. Guess what, the levels were way above those in the original spec. So rather than let the equipments manufactures off the hook, the gun was deleted from the requirement, ensuring that the manufactures had to qualify their equipment to the full spec. Once all the equipment was qualified and been proven to work in the aircraft, the gun requirement was re-instated. During air to air gunnery trials last year Alenia and more recent trials at BAE Systems Warton it has been demonstrated that the equipment still works when the gun is fired.

So one reason for the gun in out in saga was to get around a specification & contractual requirement problem.

The other reason for the saga was that it allowed the “apparent” cost of operating the Typhoon to be lowered at a time when the number of aircraft to be purchased was under threat.

Chris:vamp
 

Ths

Banned Member
Let me put it like this - Ostralia and otherwise:

1. We have got to realise that the F-35 is not solving todays problems; but those in 10 to 15 years and onwards - and the worst case scenarios.

2. I'm not totally convinced that that "fast mover" can economically solve the CAS task. personally I would say the old Pucara would be a plane for Australian minor problems.
I do think the F-16 will have years of service ahead of trying to solve CAS in the timehonoured way ; use hand-me-downs. But the F-16 needs a lot of support and is mechanically frail.

That the A-10 should have been given over to the army is another point always able to raise acrimony.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
personally I would say the old Pucara would be a plane for Australian minor problems.
Yes i looked at the Pucara. Most of the Australian population is dumb and will NOT accept buying a turboprop aircraft for combat use.

The A-10 can do all the missions the Pucara can do and much much more. The A-10 can take hits from AAA and MANPADs and bring the pilots back alive. The Pucara is no longer in production and none are available second hand. The USAF however has enough mothballed A-10's that Australia could buy a few squadrons worth. The A-10 with inflight refueling is the only cheap aircraft that can reach East Timor, PNG or the Indonesia Coast.

Even without the A-10C upgrades, the A-10 can perform in low-tech conflicts with ease. Australia could use the A-10's for counter-insurgency, close air support and as a forward air controller. The A-10 is probably the only aircraft that can do these missions and survive against a half decent enemy.

Australia will have a HUGE capability gap between the JSF and our helicopters. We wont have enough JSF to provide close air support, air defence while striking enemy targets.

A-10 for the win!!
 

WaterBoy

New Member
Im not a fan of having excesive overlap when it comes to military equipment. This is even more important when it comes to a country with a fairly limited budget like Australia.
As others have mentioned, latest being Big E, The RAAF is trying to improve its synergy by reducing the number of separate types it operates, without reducing it's overall capability.

The A-10 is undoubtedly a superb CAS platform. Unfortunately, from an Australian perspective, that’s the only role it excels at. The capabilities of the current & projected RAAF fleet more than meet Australia’s current & perceived needs. Don’t forget, the F/A-18 when sent to Iraq performed OCA/DCA missions as well as CAS & strike.

The majority of the world’s armed forces are in the same situation as Australia, in that they cannot justify or afford large fleets of single purpose aircraft. The USN is proof in point that the right ‘type’ operated by well trained crew can accomplish the numerous roles previously performed by dedicated types. Whilst it must be acknowledged, that dedicated types are superior at their design mission, this is an expense that even America is struggling to fund.

WWII was the last war fought which wasn’t controlled by accountants. Each successive conflict has been ‘costed’ with capabilities of the armed forces measured by economic rationalism. Is a single ‘jack of all trades’ the absolute best capability for most air forces? No, but generally it is the platform which performs most of their requirements adequately & affordably.

As for ‘dramatic affect’ & presence, a supersonic flyby will produce equally lasting impression. From another website;

“Spoke once with a USAF navigator who had been on the Tripoli raid. They had tanked not too long b4 the final run, and one thing the Pig had lots of was fuel. So, after they unloaded their ordnance on a SE heading, the pilot got a bit jumpy with all the low angle SA2's popping up everywhere (probably not effective but scarey nonetheless) and used it making a L180 degree turn over the city to egress they way they had come in, @full blower and 200' TFR in an "F" model. He was convinced they did more damage from that than they did with the bombs...”

Regards, WaterBoy
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As for ‘dramatic affect’ & presence, a supersonic flyby will produce equally lasting impression. From another website;

“Spoke once with a USAF navigator who had been on the Tripoli raid. They had tanked not too long b4 the final run, and one thing the Pig had lots of was fuel. So, after they unloaded their ordnance on a SE heading, the pilot got a bit jumpy with all the low angle SA2's popping up everywhere (probably not effective but scarey nonetheless) and used it making a L180 degree turn over the city to egress they way they had come in, @full blower and 200' TFR in an "F" model. He was convinced they did more damage from that than they did with the bombs...”

Regards, WaterBoy
there's also the example of an Oz SAS team that conducted the negotiated surrender of an Iraqi town west of bagdhad during Gw2 by calling in a supersonic flyby. it apparently accelerated the opening of the town. :rolleyes:
 
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