Why ASEAN matters - in the era of great power competition

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Well this ASEAN naval exercise that Indonesia initiate the idea, seems need some compromise. Especially Cambodia and Myanmar disagree on the idea, then change their stance toward more neutral exercise regimes.

This seems work as the exercises that before aim to be conducted in North Natuna Sea (part of Indonesian EEZ in SCS), now being move to South Natuna Sea which is still close to SCS but part of Indonesian water.

Map_North_Natuna_Sea.jpg

To give the idea, this is Indonesian Map of Natuna Sea (Laut Natuna). North Natuna Sea (Laut Natuna Utara) is Indonesian EEZ north of Natuna Islands bordering Malaysian and Vietnam EEZ. This is more or less part of SCS. While South Natuna Sea is what in that map call Laut Natuna which is part of Indonesian teritorial water.

The regimes of exercise now build on non combatan ones, thus more on Naval civic duties roles. Well it is compromise to bring all ASEAN navies together. This is just for a neutral regimes exercises, still already need some compromise.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Quite interesting discussion on what ASEAN latest foreign minister meeting, which also bring FM from US, China, Russia, Japan, ROK and Australia. Basically players that matters on Asia Pacific interactions.

ASEAN will not be EU or NATO, ASEAN will try to find their own places not to be dictate by major players and stay and the middle. Try stay in the middle is basically that can make ASEAN continues relevancy.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
ASEAN Solidarity Exercise in Natuna (ASEX-01 N) 2023' is the first multilateral naval exercise to be carried out exclusively for navies in the ASEAN bloc and it started yesterday.

A harbour phase of the exercise began on 18 September in Batam and a sea phase is being held from 20 to 23 September in and around Laut Natuna.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

"The production chain decoupling that is actually not a really a decoupling"

That's the main massage if this article, and basically as what happen. Especially for ASEAN, the production off shoring/relocation from China, only make many of this relocation still being integral part of production ecosystems with China.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Indonesia and Japan conducting bilateral meeting from 19th to 24th of December. Clearly shown meeting that conducting to finish some concept agreement that being made this year.

That agreement which I put this on ASEAN thread. As the agreement has become base is concept outlook on Indo-Pacific defence from an ASEAN perspective. Something that Indonesia MinDef champion, as chair during this year’s ADMM (Asean Defense Minister Meeting). From what I see, it seems both Japan and Indonesian MinDef want to shown this as Pilot Project that the concept wise can be replicated by other ASEAN MinDef
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

OECD officially makes accession discussion with Indonesia, as 1st application for SEA region. Economically Singapore should already eligible for OECD membership, but seems from my understanding Singapore doesn't want to be the first from ASEAN to apply.

For Indonesia applying for OECD is part to attract Investments as shown the regulation will be align with OECD. However politically as biggest member of ASEAN, this can be sign for the rest what Indonesia standing. At same time closing in to OECD, Indonesia also not moving off from other grouping like BRICS.

Rumours circulating that one of OECD member that have no diplomatic relations with Indonesia will become hurdle. They see Indonesia as part of hostile global parties to them. Indonesia according rumours from Ministry of Foreign Relations already told OECD, that principle of Palestine support will stay. No compromise on relationship with Israel going to happen, as long as Palestinian issue remain. Something that I don't think any Indonesian President now and future, dare to break.

So will be interesting to see how this is going to develop.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I find it very peculiar that many countries far away from the ME are so involved with the Israel-Palestine conflict, and at the same time sitting on the fence in so many other conflicts. Is it due to religion? Why then are many of the countries that are so vocal in their support of Palestinians (in spite of horrific terrorist attacks like the October 7 attack), at the same time very quiet when China is putting Uighurs in concentration camps? Or when Turkey is bombing Kurdish villages?

Seems illogical to me.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I find it very peculiar that many countries far away from the ME are so involved with the Israel-Palestine conflict, and at the same time sitting on the fence in so many other conflicts. Is it due to religion?
It’s not “peculiar” if you understand that the Palestinian issue has been around for decades and that it resonates with certain people in a way the Ukraine and others don’t. You’ve had a lot to say about the Ukraine; what have you said here about what’s going on the Congo and other places. You’ve had thousands of words to say about the Ukraine; what have you said about the occupied Palestinian territories?

it due to religion
It’s not like it’s only Muslim countries which support the Palestinian cause and as you know some of the Palestinians killed and being killed aren’t even Muslim. Some of the Palestinians ethnically cleansed in the Nakba weren’t even Muslims.


It seems “peculiar” to me that Western reaction to the deaths of Ukrainian civilians differs greatly to they reacted towards Palestinians deaths. Look also at the statements made regarding Navalny’s death which was tragic but in sharp contrast to what was said by many regarding Palestinian deaths. We also have the sharp contrast between how Ukrainian refugees were treated and how non white mostly Muslim refugees trying to get into Festung Europa were treated.

Why then are many of the countries that are so
vocal in their support of Palestinians (in spite of horrific terrorist attacks like the October 7 attack)
What sort of statement is this? Are you suggesting that countries and organisations [including Norwegian NGOs] are wrong or misguided by supporting the Palestinian cause, including showing concern and empathy for the plight of ordinary Gazans; simply because of what Hamas did on 7th October? Does this make sense?

at the same time very quiet when China is putting Uighurs in concentration camps? Or when Turkey is bombing Kurdish villages?
what do you expect them to do? Cut ties with China and suffer the economic fallout? Also, not to downplay what’s happening to the Uighurs and Kurds but are you suggesting that their plight or suffering is equal to what’s happening to the Palestinians?

Seems illogical to me
Some of what you’ve mentioned is “illogical”.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Those who support Israel bombardment wil always use Hamas Oct 7 as excuse. Eventough no justification on Israel Civilians killing, but also what justification of kiling 20 times more Palestinian civilans ? Is this a pathetic way saying one Israel Civilian worth 20 to 30 Palestinian Civilians? Afterall what Israel minister call Palestinians as Sub Human though ?

Talking on Oct 7 is really just whitewash the fact that thousands Palestinians more has been kill before that by Israel occupation and apartheid attitude by their security in the excuse to shield their ilegal settlers. Something that even Blinken now say illegal activities (but off course not going to do more then that from Washington).

Well this is ASEAN thread anyway. Calling ilogical move by mostly global south nations to support Palestinian, has to be understood. Afterall some in 'develop' countries believe wholeheartedly that Global South has to be ilogical, if they are not touting "West" logical move.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
I find it very peculiar that many countries far away from the ME are so involved with the Israel-Palestine conflict, and at the same time sitting on the fence in so many other conflicts. Is it due to religion? Why then are many of the countries that are so vocal in their support of Palestinians (in spite of horrific terrorist attacks like the October 7 attack), at the same time very quiet when China is putting Uighurs in concentration camps? Or when Turkey is bombing Kurdish villages?

Seems illogical to me.
By that logic, why is a nation like Australia so keen on the Ukraine affair, giving out millions of dollars in aid and weapons when they are as faraway from Russia as possible? Is it because the Ukranians are white and Christian?
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
STURM I haven't seen you for quite some time, i hope all is well!

By that logic, why is a nation like Australia so keen on the Ukraine affair, giving out millions of dollars in aid and weapons when they are as faraway from Russia as possible?
I think it is very logical that countries like Australia, Japan and Taiwan are providing significant support to Ukraine. Australia, Japan and Taiwan all support a rules-based international order where borders are not violated by violent invasions. As a bonus, all support democracies, and it so happens that Ukraine is a democracy.

For a country like Norway, which is in Europe and even shares a border with Russia, it makes a lot of sense to support Ukraine as much as possible, for the reasons mentioned above, but also because of the direct threat to Norway from Russia of course.

Anyway I found it interesting that nobody really answered my question about why Palestine is so much more important than other conflicts. More than 300,000 have been killed in Syria for example. To repeat Ananda's rhetorical question: to a person spending most of his time protesting against the attacks on Palestinians and no time protesting the war in Syria does this mean that 1 Palestinian is worth more than 10 Syrians?

To me the war in Syria is no less or no more important than the war in Israel, I would put them at the same level of importance. Given the large number of people killed in Syria compared to Israel perhaps I should reconsider. Anyway this is off-topic and I will not post more on this here.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Yes, what happen to the Uyghurs is terrible.
And the fact that around 10.000 civilians have died in Ukraine in the last 2 years is also terible.

But israel managed to kill 25.000 people in Gaza in just a couple of months, with a majority of them females, teenagers and children.
Israeli troops attacking on purpose hospitals, killing whole families and Red Cross rescuers/staff.

Is this less terrible ?


Every violent attack/military action against civillians is wrong, regardless the perpetrators and the victims.
But this thread is about ASEAN-matters, so please stay on topic.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
STURM I haven't seen you for quite some time, i hope all is well!
As well as it could be I guess but thanks for asking.

I found it interesting that nobody really answered my question about why Palestine is so much more important than other conflicts.
The question was answered; only not to your satisfaction.

As mentioned the Palestinian issue has been around far more longer and it resonates with individuals/countries in a way other conflicts don't. It also involves Al-Quds a place of much significance/importance.

More than 300,000 have been killed in Syria for example. To repeat Ananda's rhetorical question: to a person spending most of his time protesting against the attacks on Palestinians and no time protesting the war in Syria does this mean that 1 Palestinian is worth more than 10 Syrians?
Well the situation in Syria does not receive the same level of coverage as the Palestinian issue does and has been around for a much shorter period. It's also a wee bit harder or more complicated for the average person who does not keep track of such things; to fully comprehend. To fully understand Syria we must understand the history of the country [created by the French]; the role the Alawis occupy; the roles Iran, the West, Turkey, the Gulf states and the West played [all had slightly different agendas]; the rise of IS which in turn was linked to the situation in Iraq; etc, etc.

Based on your question; I could ask; given the level of support given to the Ukraine which is in sharp contrast to how the West reacted over Gaza [it initially bought hook line and sinker the Israeli narrative [look at statements Biden and Blinken made without first verifying things and over the UNRWA issues] does this mean that to the West; Palestinian lives has far less value than Palestinian ones? Given the statements made over Navalny and the hesitancy of various leaders to say anything similar regarding the Palestinians; does the death of one man who was a Putin opponent carry much more significance compared to thousands dead in Gaza?


Look at the statement you made, itself telling - ''Why then are many of the countries that are so vocal in their support of Palestinians (in spite of horrific terrorist attacks like the October 7 attack)''.

To me the war in Syria is no less or no more important than the war in Israel,
I have no idea what your definition is of 'no less or no more important than the war in Israel' but although tragic [all wars are] the situation in Syria differs greatly to the situation in Palestine.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

On the subset this is more to Indonesian politics, however put it in ASEAN thread, as shown how US now engage more in SEA countering China with Trade and Investment card. I already say this on Chinese Thread, and Indo Pacific thread. If US wabt to address and counter growing Sino influence, abd counter it with Trade and Investment. Because thar's biggest China card so far.

Taking defense as diplomatic move by US will bot be enough. Global South need Investment and Increase in Trade benefits. In short, it is economic card that has to be the main card.

As this case, Indonesian present administration (which more likely follow by next administration, as Prabowo so far stated he will follow Jokowi's strategy), has put much emphasis on building this new capital Nusantara. Personally I don't like the project, as for me building new capital cases so far in many countries tend to costs more then benefits. However it doesn't matter as from 3 Presidential candidates in last elections, 2 support new capital. Thus shown Indonesian political circles has more pro then Contra for this project.

Thus the administration already spend more and try attract much Investment. Not all doing well (on attracting Investment) except from China. Thus US move seems clearly done to counter Sino potential increase Investment influences, in ASEAN largest economy.

Defense and Diplomacy clout will not be enough. Money, trade and Investment has to come to equiation.
 
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