Why archery still exists?

qwerty223

New Member
OK. Frist of all, I am not trying to bias anyone or country.
I am curious when I saw picture showing a PLA Armed Police Force armed with crossbow. The bow seems to be well made and equipped with a sniper scope, I guess its for a long range assault.

This is not the 1st time I saw similar picture of PLA armed forces equipped with crossbow. Can anyone tell me why they use crossbow equipped with scope instead of sniper? Is it because of cost or there is other reason?
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
OK. Frist of all, I am not trying to bias anyone or country.
I am curious when I saw picture showing a PLA Armed Police Force armed with crossbow. The bow seems to be well made and equipped with a sniper scope, I guess its for a long range assault.

This is not the 1st time I saw similar picture of PLA armed forces equipped with crossbow. Can anyone tell me why they use crossbow equipped with scope instead of sniper? Is it because of cost or there is other reason?
Quite a few countries still train with bows of various kinds. I have seen photos of Spanish special forces using a longbow. I guess the rationale is that it is an efficient, silent weapon. The only sniper rifle that can compare to it in that role is a sub-sonic, silenced weapon that can't do much damage and isn't going to penetrate kevlar.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Kick Arse!
I want in, they would be quite good as you say for stealth, and lethal is just written all over them. By looks of the bloke in the background, it is quite similiar to sniper team, spotter carries Assualt rifle while sniper has his toy bow.
Must take a lot of training though, and may be used to increase the performance of marksman perhaps? Whole line of sight, range and variables thing, with a bit of hunting thrown in for rations.
 

merocaine

New Member
Awesome looking, silent with a lot of poundage behind the quarrel (is that what the bolt is called?) and i guess you can stick all kinds of funky fast acting poisions on em. I wonder if they work like a knife on kevlar, or a bullet?
Not a sight I thought I'd be seeing in a modern army.

It was only with the introdution of the rifled barrel did hand held gunpowder weapons become as accurate as a longbow in the hands of a trained bowman.
The arrow fired from a longbow was fully capable of punching through heavy shields and plate armour, so I suppose as a silent first strike weapon it has applications, but you have to stand to fire it! which could be a problem!
 

.pt

New Member
Longbow can only be acurately fired standing?
Also what would be efective range, and what penetration it can achieve?
.pt
 

zoolander

New Member
even with the best silencers, there still is going to be going to be some noise. The indians also use cross bows. They poison tip them when used in combat.
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Not like a cross bow is exactly silent.
The problem with a silenced firearm is that the rounds it fires have to be subsonic. That means a muzzle velocity of under 300m/s. Any faster and you get the sonic crack associated with the bullet breaking the sound barrier.

That is pistol velocities so standard kevlar will defeat it, while crossbow bolts will go through soft body armour. This doesn't mean as much today with the advent of hard Level IV armour but even 15 years ago, it was different.

So compared to pistol-velocity sniper rifles, the crossbow actually compares pretty favourably in terms of range, lethality and silence.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
The problem with a silenced firearm is that the rounds it fires have to be subsonic. That means a muzzle velocity of under 300m/s. Any faster and you get the sonic crack associated with the bullet breaking the sound barrier.

That is pistol velocities so standard kevlar will defeat it, while crossbow bolts will go through soft body armour. This doesn't mean as much today with the advent of hard Level IV armour but even 15 years ago, it was different.

So compared to pistol-velocity sniper rifles, the crossbow actually compares pretty favourably in terms of range, lethality and silence.
The .45 APC is under 300m/s, if using a lengthened barrel it can get pretty good range as compared to a cross-bow.

Crossbows are only good to 50-60m... anything longer you have to be an expert on a stationary target to get to 100m. At 250fps the slow trajectory and time to target is such that the slightest breeze will blow your projectile off the mark over 40ms.

If you stick a scope on a stocked Navy Colt you can easily hit a moving target at 100m without adjustment.
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The .45 APC is under 300m/s, if using a lengthened barrel it can get pretty good range as compared to a cross-bow.

Crossbows are only good to 50-60m... anything longer you have to be an expert on a stationary target to get to 100m. At 250fps the slow trajectory and time to target is such that the slightest breeze will blow your projectile off the mark over 40ms.

If you stick a scope on a stocked Navy Colt you can easily hit a moving target at 100m without adjustment.
True, but if you shoot someone wearing even level II body armour with a subsonic, silenced pistol round they will just turn around and ask you not to.

Soft body armour offers very little protection to arrows, bolts or knives, which is why crossbows are used.

Like I said, though, with modern hard body armour a crossbow isn't going to do any more than a pistol round. These days, I'd swap the crossbow for something like a Vintorez subsonic sniper rifle and go for a headshot.
 

merocaine

New Member
Longbow can only be acurately fired standing?
Also what would be efective range, and what penetration it can achieve?
.pt
This is lifted from wikipedia

To penetrate chain mail armour, many war arrows had 'chisel' (or 'bodkin') heads and were quite massive. Bodkin arrows have tips like elongated pyramids, which result in a very sharp and very narrow point. With their bodkin points these massive war arrows probably weighed around 65 to 100 grams (1000 to 1500 grains, grain being a unit of measure often used for arrows and bullets). This is 2 or 3 times the weight of the wooden or aluminum arrows that are used today and 4 to 5 times the weight of modern carbon fiber arrows or pre 20th century 'flight arrows', used in distance shooting contests. In peacetime, in some regions, carrying chisel points was a hanging offence, because it was thought to threaten noblemen or they were taken as evidence that one was a highwayman. Specialist war-arrows were designed to tackle the problem of different types of armour. For example, arrows with thin and sharply slanted heads were used to pierce chainmail suits, breaking one ring and consequently 'popping' a huge hole in the armour as the force of the impact knocked the other rings out of place. Many war-arrows had heads that were only attached with a small blob of wax, so that if they were to be removed conventionally only the shaft would come out, leaving the head lodged in the victim which would almost certainly cause an infected wound. The effects of a longbow are illustrated by this 12th century account by Gerald of Wales:

...in the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal. (Itinerarium Cambriae, (1191))
On the battlefield, English archers stabbed their arrows upright into the ground at their feet, reducing the time it took to notch, draw and loose (as drawing from a quiver is slower). An additional effect of this practice was that the point of an arrow would be more likely to cause infection. Bowmen relieved themselves on the same ground, but this is unlikely to have any additional effect.

Cloth-yard shafts (used in longbows, their length being 31" or one yard of cloth) recovered from the Mary Rose show that some arrowheads were attached using a copper-based glue. As copper is lethal when introduced into the bloodstream, this could be considered an example of biochemical warfare.

The only way to remove such an arrow cleanly would be to tie a piece of cloth, soaked in boiling water or another sterilising substance, to the end of it and push it through the victim's wound and out of the other side — this was incredibly painful. There were specialised tools used in the medieval period to extract arrows if in places where bone prevented the arrow being pushed through.

ouch, a trained Long bowman could hit a firing rate of up to 20 rpm!
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
To me most logical explanantion for commando units still persisting with CB's might be ability to use them during covert ops in streams and lakes where water might hamper the use of a conventional gun.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
To me most logical explanantion for commando units still persisting with CB's might be ability to use them during covert ops in streams and lakes where water might hamper the use of a conventional gun.
With the advent of water-tight cartridges I don't see why that would be a problem.
 

ever4244

New Member
OK. Frist of all, I am not trying to bias anyone or country.
I am curious when I saw picture showing a PLA Armed Police Force armed with crossbow. The bow seems to be well made and equipped with a sniper scope, I guess its for a long range assault.

This is not the 1st time I saw similar picture of PLA armed forces equipped with crossbow. Can anyone tell me why they use crossbow equipped with scope instead of sniper? Is it because of cost or there is other reason?
It s for the special force sniper , i ve heard of it has been once used to rescue hostage. Silenter than gun and as acurate as one. in fact not only china, other country s special force have use it as an silent killer for a period of time.

Actually, those cross bow is no cheapter than an AWP, For its special made for dread accuracy -----in face let a crossbow be as accurate as a gun is much more difficult than simply introduce the snipe-gun. that needs a perfect craft crossbow and also harder trained user.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
It s for the special force sniper , i ve heard of it has been once used to rescue hostage. Silenter than gun and as acurate as one. in fact not only china, other country s special force have use it as an silent killer for a period of time.

Actually, those cross bow is no cheapter than an AWP, For its special made for dread accuracy -----in face let a crossbow be as accurate as a gun is much more difficult than simply introduce the snipe-gun. that needs a perfect craft crossbow and also harder trained user.
A crossbow is not more accurate than a gun over 60m. The slow trajectory and wind drag on the bolt makes it practically impossible to correct for elevation and cross wind. Only the most expert of users can hit a target at 100m, much less a moving one. 250fps just doesn't cut it on long shots. I would rather pick up the Barret and pop off shots from 2 clicks with the supressor mounted on it. It might not be perfectly quiet but who is gonna hear it that far away?
 

ever4244

New Member
A crossbow is not more accurate than a gun over 60m. The slow trajectory and wind drag on the bolt makes it practically impossible to correct for elevation and cross wind. Only the most expert of users can hit a target at 100m, much less a moving one. 250fps just doesn't cut it on long shots. I would rather pick up the Barret and pop off shots from 2 clicks with the supressor mounted on it. It might not be perfectly quiet but who is gonna hear it that far away?
of course, the snipe-gun is much more practical in most circumstance, but there is some conner only specialized tool can clean, that s crossbow. there is no sence to fire a bolt to one 200m away, but in the city , it s quite common when you confront your enemy within hundreds yards. PLUS , the pla armed police is also responsible for hostage rescue and city security-----in that case you have to strike down a criminal while not alarm his fellow sevel yards away which no gun can perform as good as that kind of crossbow. that also remind me another job-assassinate or capture enemy s leader .

Finally , i am not saying crossbow is better than gun , then are used cooperately to make up each other s disadvantage
 

Imshi-Yallah

New Member
I'd imagine the primary drawback with the Longbow is how difficult it is reputed to be to master. This was a large part of the reason for the rise of the crossbow as it offered ease of use and plenty of punch.
Also I suspect that bolts were easier to manufacture than hand tipped and fletched arrows.

I seem to recall that some mad dutchman tried to convince the SAS to adopt either crossbows or longs bows as a means of neutralising german sentries during the second world war.
As I recall it was the training factor that let the idea down as rate of fire and range were comparable to those of sound modified SMGs and rifles.
 
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