What can passive sonar actually detect?

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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I agree. It is kinda sad that there are so much more technological development in radar technologies, missiles, EW. But if we look at underwater technology development, it is sad.
Fluid mechanics and aerodynamics are kissing cousins. There are a number of aviation track and target management principles that have some relevance for ASW.


Hopefully with the Korean incident, which in my opinion points to a torpedo attack more than anything, there will be more interest to ASW and anti-torpedo protection.
IMO the Korean event is pretty cut and dry, There is substantial underwater demolition, SINKEX and HULKEX data collected over the last 30 years to reinforce that hulls don't break like that via mines.

all the noise being generated post event is political IMO, the technical evidence and patterns are already there. how the blue house elects to spin it is their business, but you can't bull$hit the evidence thats standing out like a 2m nudist standing in the middle of a bunch of fairey penguins... :)
 

MikeWhiskyTango

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Okay. I'll again point out the initial question. Im sorry if its so confusing for you.
But I did point out several times that I was after a generalisation, a basic idea, thats all.
Not specifics. Something to GIVE ME STARTING POINT. Something to provide a foundation for the game mechanism, thats all.
And phew, yes, please point out again self evident truths about how sensitive information is never divulged. That never happens... And whether leaked info is right or wrong is beside the point, I'm not here for an ethical discussion because I was after BASIC INFO from the very start!
Feel free to point out where I called you a 'wanker'!

I guess I really walked into this one. But then again I was warned on the, dare I say it, other sites.

But right now, thank you for the input, I now have more than enough passive sonar information to take over the world ... oops, to create the foundation of a game mechanism. Extracting information from other game sims, is as I have already stated, not what I am about. I began this research from the bottom up to determine for myself the technologies and methods of warfare as I do for all my game systems. THANK YOU.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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Okay. I'll again point out the initial question. Im sorry if its so confusing for you.
But I did point out several times that I was after a generalisation, a basic idea, thats all.
Not specifics. Something to GIVE ME STARTING POINT. Something to provide a foundation for the game mechanism, thats all.
ok. my apols for flying off the handle, but having had some questions like this in the past I started off questioning motive.

And phew, yes, please point out again self evident truths about how sensitive information is never divulged. That never happens... And whether leaked info is right or wrong is beside the point, I'm not here for an ethical discussion because I was after BASIC INFO from the very start!
see prev. apols offered for flying off the handle

Feel free to point out where I called you a 'wanker'!
again, I was reading into your tone that you were unimpressed with me pointing out the fact that members of the boat community would keep their counsel. Unfort in the past I have seen teenagers in full flight quote internet specs as proof of life - they have no concept of how privileged information is handled and clearly at times don't understand that in some technology disciplines that material will never ever hit the net. Unfort (or fort) thats not the case. eg material cited by Janes and Bakers is often skewed by the vendors. I can tell you for example that the range attributed to conventional subs on pubs like Janes is abject nonsense. It is deliberately misrepresented. empirical data is factual. performance data is not.

I guess I really walked into this one. But then again I was warned on the, dare I say it, other sites.
well, I make no apols for reinforcing that material avail on the net is often close to nonsensical. the tech books are certainly a better source of truth, but without a background in maritime acoustics etc it's a hard yard.

But right now, thank you for the input, I now have more than enough passive sonar information to take over the world ... oops, to create the foundation of a game mechanism. Extracting information from other game sims, is as I have already stated, not what I am about. I began this research from the bottom up to determine for myself the technologies and methods of warfare as I do for all my game systems. THANK YOU.
just as an example, there are probably 4-5 detection technologies I am aware of that are not listed against the navies that use them, and these technologies don't appear in publicly avail UDT publications. so, yes, you can go out and form a matrice of how you think ASW can work, but it will be significantly aged in not only generation, but in utility.
 

MikeWhiskyTango

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No worries gf0012-aust. I too should apologise as it was not my intention to start a war.

The nearest analogy I can think of, is that if I had never seen a game of AFL and I want to create a boardgame about it and I ask the players how far they can kick the ball, 30m, 40m or 50m etc. Their responses simply create an average (40mtr). And from that average I can discount the braggart players who lied (70mtr) and in this way build a picture of the required football field. At this early metaphorical stage of the AFL game design, exact measurements of distance kicked, and factors as fatigue, injury, or whether there is rain, mist and wind speed and wind direction (which affect the ball or the player), have no relevance. Even the players who say nothing 'wink wink' really do not affect my average. From that point I can move on to the next stage of the design.

And I guess thats where I would then ask my next question about submarine warfare... no just kidding.

Thank-you for the input. I have much reading and research to carry on with. And thats great!
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have much reading and research to carry on with. And thats great!
Welcome to DT. You can start with reading the following:

(i) a 2004 US Navy League article;

(ii) an old US article on Anti-Submarine Warfare;

(iii) a '2006 Australian Working Paper';

(iv) a 2008 paper by the Submarine Institute of Australia and a companion presentation; and

(v) a 2009 article on 'Future Submarine Technology' by HDW engineers.

I know that these articles do not answer your questions but as you requested, I have provided links to these articles as jumping off points for your further research. There's also old threads in DT relating to submarines here and here. Feel free to take a look at the old threads. Further, there is a FPRI e-note that reviews the broad developments in Asia here, which is quite useful to get a sense of the submarine numbers.

For the larger diesel-powered attack submarines you should read up on the Collins, Oyashios and Soyu classes of submarines which are designed for long transits, quickly and with minimum indiscretion. If I'm not wrong, these submarines use Raytheon’s AN/BYG-1 combat management system from the USN’s Virginia Class submarines which has requires a larger onboard power capability, which in turn, enhances their detection capabilities.

As I understand it, the Australians are even developing nondestructive techniques for inspection of glue for anechoic tiles (link). Other coatings on submarines are fairly hi-tech materials science stuff - there's even Australian research on the coatings on submarine antennae to reduce water droplets on submarine antennae (link). BTW, gf0012-aust used to work for an Australian company that supplied some tech that has been used in Singapore's Swedish made submarines (Challenger and Archer classes, which have been tropicalised' for operating in our waters), which are smaller. I'll not clarify further for gf0012-aust here unless he chooses to do so himself.

If you are interested here's a brief given in Singapore on 'Underwater Research Opportunities' given to Singaporeans. Singapore's Archer Class submarines are much smaller, with limited power. Some sources have speculated that small diesel-electric submarine like the Archer Class may have 3 megawatt-hours of energy stored in it's batteries. In contrast, if that same submarine turns on it's diesel engines it probably has about 300 megawatt-hours of stored energy in its full fuel oil tanks. With AIP, about 30 megawatt-hours of stored energy is available to power "hotel loads" (sensors, lights, air conditioning, heating, and other necessary auxiliaries). When a AIP submarine like the Archer Class uses one of it's two AIP engines, there might be 10-20 KW left over for propulsion, which is 15-30 horsepower (HP) - enough for 2-4 knots. If they want to move faster, it is necessary to draw upon battery power. AIP gives our submarines endurance, but, not mobility. Therefore, submarines like the Archer class are well suited when deployed as an anti-access/area denial tool - which is quite different from the role of the Australian and Japanese submarines.

Cheers :D
 
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Marc 1

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. In fact I once posed a 'loaded' query regarding modern tank sights and laying a mortar on several net sites and was shocked to find the respondents all knew the answer,
VERY large difference between the two levels of knowledge. Mortar laying in particular is not rocket science - Modern combat systems on a sub are probably more complicated than rocket science. Tank sights - again depending on the sight and the military involved may not be that secret at all.
 

MikeWhiskyTango

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Yes. aware very large diff between mortar laying and sonar. that wasnt my original point! Back then it was my first time on the net and I wanted to test the waters and determine veracity. I wasnt claiming that sonar would be any less easy to understand or obtain.

Also, I've done programmes for rockets and I can tell you the formulas for specific impulse for various fuels, venturi widths, changing mass with decreasing fuel loads, gravity and all the rest consists of far more difficult formulas than Ive seen for sonar. The SL, SN, DT, TL for sonar is definately NOT rocket science. In fact, Ive already created basic sonar tables for WW2, 50's 70's and the present and achieved satisfactory results.
 
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