What Assault Rifle - British Army Should Replace SA-80 A2 With?

[StobieWan]

Did a lot of MOUT work in the US during Ex Caltrop Force - we were the first line unit to receive the Steyr, so had to learn very smartly that when swapping shoulders you needed to point the weapon at an angle approaching 90 degrees with the ejection port pointed down - red hot brass up your left nostril wasn't fun. Even doing that you'd occassionally get hot brass down the front of your shirt which also probably gave Psy the idea for dancing Gangnam style (I knew I'd seen that dance before).

Then again, the much shorter length, full auto at the squeeze of the trigger, the simple sights and ruggedness of the weapon offset this one disadvantage.

Hahahaha.. I've done that a trap door rifle on range, just now and again, I'd pop the damn lever just smartly enough to bounce the case in a neat little arc straight into the neck of my shirt. Thankfully it was a rifle club with a moderately informal atmosphere so as long as I kept the barrel pointed downrange and left the rifle where it lay, no-one objected to some buffoon leaping to his feet and shaking himself vigorously.

I'm sure if I *tried* to do that, I'd fail 100 times out of a 100.

 

[StobieWan]

The problem has arisen because neither the 5.56mm or 7.62mm were adopted via a scientific regime. They were the case of the slight modifications of existing rounds combined with immense American industrial pressure. When starting with a clean slate a bullet between 6.5mm and 7mm is usually selected. They combine the required lethality with a controllable recoil.

The UK, and everyone else in NATO, adopted the 7mm (.280) until US pressure demanded 7.62mm (despite US testing showing the 7mm was superior). The FN FAL was first designed as a 7mm rifle. 7mm was selected because this round was also to equip sustained fire machineguns (SFMG) and this bullet was better in this role and more than good enough as a rifle than rival 6.5mm and 6.8mm options which British testing indicated was a bit better in a rifle but not so good in the SFMG.

The story behind 5.56mm had even less military involvement as it was a civil hunting round used in a light rifle to test improvements in combat accuracy thanks to high velocity and was around when an easy to produce rifle was needed by the US Army for VietNam and the rest is history. 5.56mm has gone through two generations of being beefed up as a bullet but still is nowhere near as effective as the original British 7mm round would be. Especially as a general purpose round as 7mm was a highly lethal long range MG bullet. Because of its high section density it would outrange 7.62mm in MGs in both accuracy (shorter time of flight) and lethality (more terminal energy at long range).

Good summary - I didn't realise the FN was originally a 7mm design mind - ironic considering we passed the EM2 over in favour of the FN.

Or course, the US having dragged everyone into the world of the bastard red-headed step child of the 7.62 round, barely a decade later, they're taking 5.56 on board. Mind, after the attempts the US made to sabotage that introduction, you'd be hard placed to take it personally. Shame - 7mm would have been pretty much what everyone is now trying to achieve with the various 6.8mm SPC and similar offerings.

Got to be one of the more interesting "what if" situations as that 7mm would have been pretty damn startling in service I suspect.

Lovely bit of Pathe footage on it here@

em-2 assault rifle test - YouTube

 

[PO2GRV]

as a brief digression I remember back in 1999-2000ish I was with my then stepfather on NOB driving by the piers when I noticed an RN Trident class SSBN which we immediately walked up to for a tour

a few watchstanders with SA80s were topside and as we waited for permission to come aboard my stepfather asked one of the watchstanders, "What kind of rifle is that?"

He responds, "It's a piece of shite."

lets hope whatever the replacement is its something the servcemembers actually using them can feel a bit more confident about

 

[StobieWan]

Ah, there's nothing more terrifying than a sailor with a rifle Or an officer with a map I guess.

On the plus side, I'd stick a tenner on that rifle having being an unreworked A1, the A2 is streets ahead (according to everyone with ops experience I've seen comment, at least)

 

[RobWilliams]

IIRC the upgrade program by H&K started in 2000 I think, so that'd probably be it.

It looks like a bloody smart rifle now IMO, especially kitted out with all the extras you can get these days

In Cardiff today I was lucky enough to see a battalion (must've been a battalion, there were at least 8 seperated 'units' with c80 soldiers in each) of the Welsh Guards - preceded by a Guards Band - march through the city. Top notch thing to see, they all had bayonets on their rifles too, lovely sight.

 

[Quicksear]

as far as i know, the SA 80 and L85 had relatively poor comparative figures when put next to other rifles of ANY class. its ergonomics are questionable and its modularity minimal. So yes, i think something new is needed. On the topic of ammunition, a 6 -7 mm intermediate cartridge should be developed. the ones currently fielded are all special purpose short range rounds without the range needed. Perhaps a slightly longer case on the Grendel?

 

[RAFregimentkid]

This thread is for the Brit's on this forum who are fed up with the shoddy made SA80 assault rifle, Decide which rifle should replace it and post a poll.

I think we should just upgrade the L85a2 further, I notice that most complaints were made in posts from 2008 that were before recent upgrades, I believe we just need to give the weapon a good look inside and outside and see what soldiers want improving such as weight, however this was addressed in 2012 by lighter polymers and magazines... just an example. I'm no Politician but I would guess this would be cheaper too. I think the L85 is a great weapon and all it needs is updates to bring it to the future and 2012 saw the beginnings of this.

 

[RobWilliams]

Should check out this thread in regards to any sort of discussion about replacing the L85A2. It's a more 'recent' thread. In all honestly one of the two should be binned as they both are about the same thing.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/a...british-army-should-replace-sa-80-a2-10193-5/

 

[horrible5219]

arm chair warriors

This thread is for the Brit's on this forum who are fed up with the shoddy made SA80 assault rifle, Decide which rifle should replace it and post a poll.

The SA80A2 Is a banging bit of kit, its just showing its age. The Bull-pop mech is a good idea, reduce overall lengh yet keep barrel lengh. Compared to an M4 or a STYER, its quite heavy. It would be nice if it was a little lighter, however you work with the tools your given. However if I was playing some computer game I would go with a................................. shut up. Forums like these do my head in. I joined this site just to say ARMCHAIR COMMANDOES SUCK

 

[Bonza]

The SA80A2 Is a banging bit of kit, its just showing its age. The Bull-pop mech is a good idea, reduce overall lengh yet keep barrel lengh. Compared to an M4 or a STYER, its quite heavy. It would be nice if it was a little lighter, however you work with the tools your given. However if I was playing some computer game I would go with a................................. shut up. Forums like these do my head in. I joined this site just to say ARMCHAIR COMMANDOES SUCK

So you're done, then?

 

[Eeshaan]

HAHAHAHAHA that was a hilarious post by horrible5219.

But seriously, didn't the UK govt. have plans for the G36K to replace the SA80 ? It was considered to be a better option than the upgrade, but the politicians thought otherwise, from what I've read...

 

[RAFregimentkid]

HAHAHAHAHA that was a hilarious post by horrible5219.

But seriously, didn't the UK govt. have plans for the G36K to replace the SA80 ? It was considered to be a better option than the upgrade, but the politicians thought otherwise, from what I've read...

G36K?? That wouldn't have been my first guess for a replacement, I would have said M416 but I reckon we can wait till 2020 since we've spent so much improving it since 2008. I do like the G36 series of weapons though.

 

[StobieWan]

HAHAHAHAHA that was a hilarious post by horrible5219.

But seriously, didn't the UK govt. have plans for the G36K to replace the SA80 ? It was considered to be a better option than the upgrade, but the politicians thought otherwise, from what I've read...

I'd be hard placed to find a heavier 5.56 weapon than the SA80 but the G36 is a good start

The A2 upgrade worked out pretty well, the weapon has had a shed load of cash thrown at it to give it the rails, new sights etc. I'd say run the A2 on til someone comes up with something genuinely revolutionary - we've got so many of the things in stock that keeping a well maintained and serviceable pool for active troops won't be a struggle.

I'd be interested in seeing if some of the innovations from civilian pistols can be used, like aluminium/scandium alloys - light but tough, not overly expensive, more carbon fibre, composites - anything that gets the all up weight of the weapon down. Maybe a powered rail system with a centrally located battery that powered all the accessories, with a common charging socket in the butt or some place, saving the weight of carrying numerous cells for flashlights, pointers, that sort of kit.

Less cables, clutter, weight, better resistance to corrosion, modular in nature, tool free adjustability to allow for shooting with or without body armour, allowing you to run with something with no rails, mounts, short barrel etc as a dismount weapon for armour etc right up to the fully ally spec CQB rig, rails, sights, pointers the lot.

And ideally, caseless ammo, a la LSAT.

But I definitely wouldn't spend money on another conventional assault rifle with marginal improvement in utility.

Oh, and standing ovation to Horrible I feel your pain mate ...

 

[Volkodav]

What on earth is a "Bull-pop", or a "STYER" for that matter? Then again I am also unfamiliar with the term "ARMCHAIR COMMANDO". By any chance did you pick this terminology off a poorly written or badly translated videogame?

I first encountered the SA-80 at a multinational service shoot in the early 90's. The blokes on the UK team swore by them although, as a left hander, I found them uncomfortable personally preferring the F-88 Steyr, Colt Commando (that's what one of the teams was using, not the M-4) and even my old SLR. You make do with what you have when you have no choice but it is better to work and push towards the best you can get before you have no choice.

It is quite clear the SA-80 was a compromise that has been made to work because replacing it was too expensive, financially and politically. Were there better options available when it was selected? Yes. Are there better options available today? Yes. Will it be replaced in the near term? No. Why? Because, while not the best choice out there it is good enough so why waste the money?

 

[RobWilliams]

Very strange use terminology, considering he claims to be a serving member of the UK Armed Forces on his page . . . . .

 

[Waylander]

@StobieWan
The G36 being a heavy weapon?
The baseline G36 weights just 3.36kg which is nearly one kg lighter than a SA80 and in the same ballpark as the different M16 versions.

 

[StobieWan]

@StobieWan
The G36 being a heavy weapon?
The baseline G36 weights just 3.36kg which is nearly one kg lighter than a SA80 and in the same ballpark as the different M16 versions.

I do apologise - I thought I'd seen a heavier weight someplace else. I'll stand by my main point however - swapping the SA80 for the G36 doesn't offer enough of an improvement to justify the expense.

 

[Waylander]

I don't disagree with that.

If one wants new guns from HK the 416 and the 417 are the way to go, offering a nice combination of general issued ARs and additional DMRs very similar to the SCAR-L and SCAR-H combo.

Not that I think any of these give fundamental advantages over the SA80 after it's main flaws are ironed out now.

 

[Bonza]

Makes more sense to me that given the SA80A2 seems to work perfectly fine that new ammunition types a la SOST and M855A1 would be the easiest and cheapest way of increasing lethality until something truly revolutionary comes along. Transitioning from one 5.56mm carbine to another seems like it would be a tremendous cost with little practical return, given the current financial state of the world. As far as DMRs go, there's nothing to stop an SA80A2 operator from also operating an appropriate weapon in 7.62mm in smaller numbers.

 

[RobWilliams]

In its current incarnation, the L85A2 is a nice piece of kit. Able to now fit all the fancy bells and whistles that troops have come to expect, i've attached some good photos of it demonstrating this.

That's exactly what we've got going on Bonza, bought something like 400 (but that's from memory so don't take it as fact) 7.62 rifles designated L129A1 as a UOR from Afghanistan.

According to Jane's that weapon beat off the HK417, SCAR & "an offering from Sabre Defence Industries", worldguns.ru names it as the XR-10.

UK selects 7.62 mm Sharpshooter weapon for Afghan ops
Modern Firearms - L129A1 Sharpshooter