Varyag back in Service?

[Pusser01]

Noting the pictures of the ex Varyag appatently being refurbished in the Photo Gallery, what are the chances of her entering service in the PLA-N?
Would she only be used as a basis to gain experience in carrier ops, or might the PLA-N spend the big bucks & get her to full operating status?
Any thoughts?

 

[Big-E]

Noting the pictures of the ex Varyag appatently being refurbished in the Photo Gallery, what are the chances of her entering service in the PLA-N?
Would she only be used as a basis to gain experience in carrier ops, or might the PLA-N spend the big bucks & get her to full operating status?
Any thoughts?

It doesn't make much sense to refurbish her for carrier landings if she is going to stay tied up to the pier. They could get the same benefit from a modified airstrip as they have been for years now. Either they are going to tow her out to sea for practice or they might try to put new engines in her and have their first carrier. It might not be cheaper than building a new one but it would certainly be faster.

 

[contedicavour]

Another way of looking at the Varyag issue is to think of what alternatives the PLAN has.
If the PLAN wants a new carrier, it would most likely be a clone of the Varyag because it would use Flankers, Helix and Russian technology.
So... if I were them I would fit engines and radars on the Varyag and start using those expensive navalized Flankers
Anyway, more than happy if they don't. Japan and Korea would answer back with carriers of their own and the whole Western Pacific would become a very dangerous area

cheers

 

[navy]

:sniper :sniper Instead of bying navalised flankers, couldn't they just modify some of their own from the PLAAF or would the cost of that not be worth it? Also is it possible that they could use Q-5 Fantans as carrier borne mud-movers? finaly if they do commission the Varyag what specialized AAW or ASW warships does the PLAN have that would be able to protect the carrier?
:sniper

 

[Big-E]

:sniper :sniper Instead of bying navalised flankers, couldn't they just modify some of their own from the PLAAF or would the cost of that not be worth it? Also is it possible that they could use Q-5 Fantans as carrier borne mud-movers? finaly if they do commission the Varyag what specialized AAW or ASW warships does the PLAN have that would be able to protect the carrier?
:sniper

The airframes of PLAAF fighters aren't strong enough for carrier ops. They're testing a primitive AEGIS type defense system, if operable would provide AAW but ASW is EXTREMELY lacking.

 

[long live usa]

i thought that when china purchased this from ukraine that it was agreed it would not be used for military purposes wich is why the ukraine removed her power plant and electronic equipment it was supposed to be turned into a floating amuesment park but know its gaurded by heavy security,have they brokered a different deal with the ukraine or will china break the contract?

 

[Jtimes2]

i thought that when china purchased this from ukraine that it was agreed it would not be used for military purposes wich is why the ukraine removed her power plant and electronic equipment it was supposed to be turned into a floating amuesment park but know its gaurded by heavy security,have they brokered a different deal with the ukraine or will china break the contract?

Most of the electronics, including the "Sky Watch" antanna, weren't installed; and the boilers were detubed prior to the ship being sold. The agreement with Ukraine was that the ship was sold to a private SOE (state-owned company) to serve as a casino; and in no way could serve as a mobile ship of any type.

What actually happened was as soon as the Varyag had cleared the Bosporus, the SOE went "bankrupt" and the Chinese gov't "forclosed" the ship.....so; technically they didn't legally break the business side of the arrangement.

As far as the military side; they are certainly making it somewhat operational in some regard. The photos show scaffolding on the island and welding on the main deck; that isn't routine hull maintenance. The PLAN will probably never formally recommission the ship to barely stay within the contract; until it's needed for combat. If taht should happen; all's fair in love & war as the saying goes and Ukraine has little to zero leverage against China.

 

[Jtimes2]

The airframes of PLAAF fighters aren't strong enough for carrier ops. They're testing a primitive AEGIS type defense system, if operable would provide AAW but ASW is EXTREMELY lacking.

If I had to put forth a guess, I'd say the Chinese want the ship not as a carrier at all, but as a makeshift LPH for amphibious ops. Given the gross unreliability of the Kiev/Kuznetzov proplusion plant (Kuznetzov has suffered five complete engine failures, and the Russians built a special ship that travels with her to provide steam when she's not actually in motion) I doubt the Chinese will retube the boilers and will instead install diesels. This would make for much reduced speed but would be perfect for using the ship as a "smart barge" for amphib ops.

The PLAN has built a Jeanne d'Arc type ship; the Shichang, to test the concept of this and is reportedly pleased.

 

[contedicavour]

:sniper :sniper Instead of bying navalised flankers, couldn't they just modify some of their own from the PLAAF or would the cost of that not be worth it? Also is it possible that they could use Q-5 Fantans as carrier borne mud-movers? finaly if they do commission the Varyag what specialized AAW or ASW warships does the PLAN have that would be able to protect the carrier?
:sniper

AFAIK the PLAN already has between 24 and 48 navalized Flankers ready.
Weaponry is comparable to SU-30, so these birds are good both at air-to-air combat and at air-to-surface combat with several standoff missiles of their own. Dangerous bunch indeed.
Although as Big-E points out, ASW is poor. A few Ka-28 helix helos won't be enough if a USN Improved Los Angeles gets the order to sink the Varyag with TLAMs or Harpoons.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

If I had to put forth a guess, I'd say the Chinese want the ship not as a carrier at all, but as a makeshift LPH for amphibious ops. Given the gross unreliability of the Kiev/Kuznetzov proplusion plant (Kuznetzov has suffered five complete engine failures, and the Russians built a special ship that travels with her to provide steam when she's not actually in motion) I doubt the Chinese will retube the boilers and will instead install diesels. This would make for much reduced speed but would be perfect for using the ship as a "smart barge" for amphib ops.

The PLAN has built a Jeanne d'Arc type ship; the Shichang, to test the concept of this and is reportedly pleased.

Very interesting - do you have more information on the support ship that follows Kuznetsov around to provide power in case of engine failure ?
thks
cheers

 

[Big-E]

If I had to put forth a guess, I'd say the Chinese want the ship not as a carrier at all, but as a makeshift LPH for amphibious ops. Given the gross unreliability of the Kiev/Kuznetzov proplusion plant (Kuznetzov has suffered five complete engine failures, and the Russians built a special ship that travels with her to provide steam when she's not actually in motion) I doubt the Chinese will retube the boilers and will instead install diesels. This would make for much reduced speed but would be perfect for using the ship as a "smart barge" for amphib ops.

The PLAN has built a Jeanne d'Arc type ship; the Shichang, to test the concept of this and is reportedly pleased.

Considering a refit Varyag would have a completely new set of engines I don't think the PLAN would put the same kind in after Russia's experience with this failure. This so called support ship you speak of, I have not seen it. Last time I saw the Kuznetzov she left a 3 mile oil slick but she was under her own steam. As I recall the Varyag was supposed to be nuclear wasn't she?

 

[Francois]

Not nuclear.
The Su-27s never could take off from the Kuz with more then a reco-pod or a single missile. No catapult, not enough power.

A good read :
CHINA'S AIRCRAFT CARRIER AMBITIONS
Seeking Truth from Rumors
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/review/2004/Winter/art6-w04.htm

 

[Jtimes2]

Considering a refit Varyag would have a completely new set of engines I don't think the PLAN would put the same kind in after Russia's experience with this failure. This so called support ship you speak of, I have not seen it. Last time I saw the Kuznetzov she left a 3 mile oil slick but she was under her own steam. As I recall the Varyag was supposed to be nuclear wasn't she?

The support ship is/was nameless, hull # ENS-357. Soviet designation was Pr. 305 elektrostantsiye sudno ("ship supplying steam & electricity"); the NATO reporting name was "Tomba". Four were built in Poland at the same time the Kievs were building; three decom'ed in 1991 and the ENS-357 this spring. I'll be darned if I can find a picture but she looked like a typical 5000ton freighter; except she had a second funnel identical to the amidships one on the poop deck (it looked strange) and a "mack" mast on the foc'sle. In addition to her own powerplant; she had three extra diesels hooked up to generators and an electric boiler. She could provide an alongside carrier with direct electricity or steam.

The Kievs and Kuznetzov have rube goldberg engine rooms with eight boilers, four turbines, crosstied condensers, etc. It's just a doubled arrangement of the Moskva's propulsion layout, which makes no sense considering the problems they had with those two ships. All had engine fires; the last Kiev (Gorshkov) had fires in 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1996. The Kuznetzov has had no fires but lots of breakdowns. Here's a picture of the Moskva's engine room on fire. PHOTO: http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/images/russia/moskva-2.jpg

The two Kuznetzovs were never designed to be nuclear. You aren't off base though; the Soviets had two planned CVN classes: the Orel (about 80,000tons, planned for the late 1970s but cancelled to fund the Kievs) and the Ulyanovsk (76,000tons, laid down in 1988; she was about 90 days from being launched when the Nov '91 coup happened; the shipyard workers struck and never resumed work after the coup.) The hull was scrapped in 1994. Here's a pic of Ulyanovsk: PHOTO: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/ulyanovsk-line.gif

Here's the navalized MiG-23 Flogger, planned for the Orel. PHOTO: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=4485

Here's the Su-33, planned attack jet for the Kuznetzovs and Ulyanovsks. (it was cancelled, Kuz uses navalized Frogfoots) PHOTO: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=4486

Here's the Beriev P-40, planned ASW jet for Ulyanovsk. PHOTO: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=4078

 

[tphuang]

AFAIK the PLAN already has between 24 and 48 navalized Flankers ready.
Weaponry is comparable to SU-30, so these birds are good both at air-to-air combat and at air-to-surface combat with several standoff missiles of their own. Dangerous bunch indeed.
Although as Big-E points out, ASW is poor. A few Ka-28 helix helos won't be enough if a USN Improved Los Angeles gets the order to sink the Varyag with TLAMs or Harpoons.

cheers

No, the mk2s really are not navalized flankers, they are just flankers serving in PLANAF. It's not known whether China will buy su-27kub or get licensed production or develop its own with the help of the Russians. We will see. I'd like to see Varyag sailing out of the port on its power first.

 

[long live usa]

i wonder if china will produce a carrier themselves?, they have studied them alot and have purchased them before, would it feature the ski jump style of the varvags flight deck?

 

[Jtimes2]

i wonder if china will produce a carrier themselves?, they have studied them alot and have purchased them before, would it feature the ski jump style of the varvags flight deck?

In 1997 they tried to buy a sister ship to Chakri Narubet from the Bazan yards in Spain, they couldn't agree to a price. I'm surprised they haven't tried to buy Narubet itself; as the Thais barely ever sail her. Maybe there is a no-resell condition on the Thais' contract?

Supposedly they wanted the Clemenceau as well; the EU still has an arms embargo from Tienemmen so that went nowhere.

I'm assuming any future CV would have a ski jump. The Chinese are right now negotiating for the patent on the AL-31FN thrust-vecoring engine.

 

[long live usa]

im not sure if this is true or not but some speculated that when india offered to train crews for thailand's new carrier they were trying to prevent just that(the carrier being sold to china)?,but i doubt thailand would sell it now because it is intrested in a second carrier to protect its maritime zones in the andaman sea,although right now they lack the submarines for escort duty

 

[Big-E]

In 1997 they tried to buy a sister ship to Chakri Narubet from the Bazan yards in Spain, they couldn't agree to a price. I'm surprised they haven't tried to buy Narubet itself; as the Thais barely ever sail her. Maybe there is a no-resell condition on the Thais' contract?

Maybe the Aussies would be pissed if they saw the billion in aid they gave that went to buy Chakri Nubet end up in Chinese hands.:

 

[navy]

Another way of looking at the Varyag issue is to think of what alternatives the PLAN has.
If the PLAN wants a new carrier, it would most likely be a clone of the Varyag because it would use Flankers, Helix and Russian technology.
So... if I were them I would fit engines and radars on the Varyag and start using those expensive navalized Flankers
Anyway, more than happy if they don't. Japan and Korea would answer back with carriers of their own and the whole Western Pacific would become a very dangerous area

cheers

Having done some reasearch on the capability of the Kuznetsov air wing, the 29th KIAP, wouldn't it make sense for the Chinese to lengthen the Kuznetsov in order to extend the take off runs for the aircraft or would they install catapult systems. The reason i ask is because the Su-33's and Su-25UBK are not able to take off with a full fuel load or even a heavy weapons load.:kar

 

[Big-E]

Having done some reasearch on the capability of the Kuznetsov air wing, the 29th KIAP, wouldn't it make sense for the Chinese to lengthen the Kuznetsov in order to extend the take off runs for the aircraft or would they install catapult systems. The reason i ask is because the Su-33's and Su-25UBK are not able to take off with a full fuel load or even a heavy weapons load.:kar

If there going to go to all that trouble they might as well build another one. I think it would do PLAN a world of good just to get their naval aviation arm up and running buy refitting Varyag in her current config. It will help immensly to getting a better program started earlier when they start producing carriers domestically.