Time for a New rifle/Small arms system

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Awang se said:
SLR i think has an effective range of 1000m if i'm not mistaken. The break up effect in 5.56 you mention i think is base on what materials use for the bullets. I recall something about the type of blunt soft bullets being banned sometimes ago. I saw picture of people being wounded by M16 5.56 round and by 7.62 SLR round. The latter is a mess. The man lost quarter of his skull.
I think you're talking about dumdum bullets which are banned under the geneva convention. also cross hatched bullets etc....

I've always had a soft spot for the SLR, they're just not the most portable of weapons though (compared to a Steyr ;)
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Nope, SS109 rounds are normal Full Metal Jacket rounds, in compliance with the Geneva Convention. It's just that through some feature of their design (perhaps their reduced cross-section maybe, compared to 7.62mm) and/or the extremely high velocity of the projectile, they have a tendency to shatter upon impact. The effect of this is that the projectile normally shatters when it hits a solid part of a human body (or any other hard substance) and creates multiple wounds within the body, thus hopefully (for the firer, not the recipient) creating a more devasting wound. It's a terrible thing I know, but that's war for you. This effect and the accuracy of the weapon is the reason the Steyr has been such a deadly effective weapon. I referred in an earlier post that a rumour used to go around in the RAA that no-one had ever survived when shot by a Steyr...
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to be so graphic, I could have talked about blunt trauma, entry/exit wounds and the actual effects (physiology) of a bullet hitting a human being, but it would no doubt gross most people out and they'd go else where. Unfortunately I had to mention some of these things to explain fully, why the 5.56mm round is preferred to 7.62mm rounds these days. The ability to carry more 5.56mm rounds is simply one reason to adopt it. There are many others...
 

Deltared075

New Member
gf0012 said:
I think you're talking about dumdum bullets which are banned under the geneva convention. also cross hatched bullets etc....

I've always had a soft spot for the SLR, they're just not the most portable of weapons though (compared to a Steyr ;)

I wonder why they banned the bullet??
Weapons were designed to kill, does it matter killing pretty or ugly?
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Dum-dum bullets or properly manufactured rounds known as "hollow points" create horrific wounds, but have a tendency to incapacitate a person rather than kill them outright, though obviously they do kill people. It was decided that these bullets should be banned for military usage due to the damage they do to people who survive. They truly are cruel and inhuman. In saying that however, hollow point rounds are used by police services worldwide, which aren't covered by that particular convention...
 

Deltared075

New Member
US cluster bomb also do a lot of damage, why dun banned it?
I dun think a soldier will have much left for his body even he survived?

what a stupid rule!
 

lamdacore

New Member
can someone give a detail info on what exactly 5.56mm, 7.62mm rounds are in terms of their make, capability, pros and cons. I'm actually a bit poor in this field so some good info from informative people would be helpful.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
I think it's a good rule Delta. Anything that reduces pain and suffering is good isn't it? Sure other ways to kill people remain and probably always will, but it's better than nothing. Info on 5.56mm and 7.52mm rounds eh? Whew!!! Have you got all day to spare?

Okay, the SS109 5.56mm round as it is known is the standard rifle round for NATO Countries and it's allies. It is a round chambered in 5.56x45mm (ie: the diameter of the projectile is 5.56mm wide and the length of the projectile is 45mm long) The Standard round is a 67.9 grain projectile (projectile weights are measured in grains, not grams.) The round when fired from a NATO standard rifle gnerally has a velocity in the vicinity of 3025 feet per second. This round is a full metal jacket round (ie: it has a copper casing around a steel penetrator) and is designed to be capable of penetrating a 10mm steel plate at 570 metres.

This round is normally used in NATO standard rifles (M-16/M4, SA-80, FAMAS, Steyr AUG, G36 etc) and light support weapons (FN-Minimi SA-80 Light Support Weapon, etc). The 7.62mm round is the older NATO standard round and is predominantly still used in general purpose machine guns, (M60E3, MAG-58/M240 etc) sniper rifles and countries still using older rifles such as the FN-FAL (SLR) or G3. The round is chambered for 7.62mm with a projectile length of 51mm. The projectile weights vary, but are generally around the 145 grain, mark. The velocity of the round also varies but is generally around the 2750 feet per second mark. This round as you can see is much bigger and heavier than the 5.56mm, but has a slower velocity. It is much more accurate over long ranges than the 5.56mm, but as it is bigger and heavier generally less rounds can be carried, which is the primary (though not the only) reason it was replaced by 5.56mm. The 7.62mm also produces far more recoil than the 5.56mm round and thus is far less controllable on an automatic weapons. (GPMG's excepted, due to their size and weight).

The round is still used in GPMG's and sniper rifle's due to it's range, accuracy and penetrating power. Both rounds are still widely manufactured by just about every country on Earth (even ex-Soviet bloc countries). The Soviet 7.62mm round confuses some people. It is known as 7.62mm short, due to the projectile being chambered for 7.62mm diameter, but only 39mm in length ( ie" 7.62mmx39). The Soviet 7.62mm is therefore much less powerful than the NATO 7.62mm round and is more comparable to the 5.56mm round. This is just the basics. There is far more to learn on this subject and a quick "Googleing" will provide you with more info than you would ever want to know about this stuff... Cheers.


[Admin: AD, very hard to read everything in one paragraph. :)]
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Have you ever been a professional soldier Delta? You accept the risk that you may be killed or injured when you sign up for Military Service. A specific type of bullet isn't going to concern you overly. The idea to ban "dum-dum" bullets was considered such a good idea, that even the Soviet Bloc agreed to it. Doesn't that change your opinion just a bit? Everyone else in the world basically decided they should be banned from Military use.

Besides if one country introduced them, so would other countries and YOU would have just as much to fear as your enemies. Sorry but the case against them is much greater than the case for them will ever be. Much like the case against Land Mines is becoming these days. Nearly all Western Countries have banned the use of Land Mines in their militaries. I wouldn't mind betting that Cluster Bombs will follow the same fate soon. The US/UK have basically stopped using them operationally (although they are still in the inventory) and many Countries (including Australia) don't even have them in their inventories.

How's that Webs?
 

lalith prasad

Banned Member
the reason why dumdums were banned was that the effect was too ghastly.the reason why the 5.56 was accepted atleast by the indian army was that it reduced weight and that it has superior dynamic also india army beleives that if you injure an enemy two people will be require to remove him thus effectively removing three people from the scene of battle whereas you leave the dead.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Dum-dums are also ballistically inferior to FMJ rounds, meaning your accuracy will be less. Overall there is not a strong enough reason for them to be used. Current FMJ rounds do more than enough damage. Dum-Dums or hollowpoints would be "overkill" for military use. Thanks Victoria, I tried to explain the difference as best I could...
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Hollowpoint rounds have a tendency to break up upon impact thus leading to additional wounds within the target. A hollowpoint should therefore have a lesser ability than FMJ rounds to penetrate armour, but they would retain some ability. I know several types of hollowpoint pistol rounds are capable of defeating body armour if that's what you're referring to.
 

Deltared075

New Member
steel bullets better or the copper bullets?

Most rifles used copper bullets but some used steel bullets.
what the different?
 
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