The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that Kyiv’s response to Ukraine’s internal divisions made peaceful dialogue impossible and left Russia no choice but to intervene.

Even if I were to accept your account of divisions and repression within Ukraine, you haven’t established why Russian military intervention was inevitable. Russia having an interest in the outcome doesn’t mean it had no alternative to invade.

There is also the chronology: Russia had already militarily intervened in Ukraine before both the April poll and the Odesa fire in May. Odesa cannot explain why that intervention began.
The trigger for the intervention was the violent overthrow of power and the geopolitical turn of Ukraine; Russia had no soft power tools left to keep Ukraine in a neutral status.
The USA and Europe for decades ignored Russia's concerns and security problems, remember the Munich speech of President Putin in 2007.
The Odesa tragedy is not a cause, but a clear example of the fact that no one was going to conduct a dialogue with the South-East, and that they would kill for dissent.
 
The trigger for the intervention was the violent overthrow of power and the geopolitical turn of Ukraine; Russia had no soft power tools left to keep Ukraine in a neutral status.
The USA and Europe for decades ignored Russia's concerns and security problems, remember the Munich speech of President Putin in 2007.
The Odesa tragedy is not a cause, but a clear example of the fact that no one was going to conduct a dialogue with the South-East, and that they would kill for dissent.

You're now citing Odesa as an illustration, although you previously included it in your explanation of what "forced Russia to intervene."

But losing influence over Ukraine doesn't mean Russia was forced to invade. You're assuming Russia had to impose its will on Ukrainians by force. What concrete threat made that necessary, and why was invasion the only viable option? Putin expressing concerns in Munich doesn't show that other options had been exhausted.

What specific outcome would address the security concerns you say made this war unavoidable, and what does Russia still need to achieve to get there?

Separately, how do you assess the results so far? Have they been worth the costs, or could Russia have achieved more by putting that effort and those resources elsewhere?
 
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The "context" is your post, I am responding to your post.
Once again, I am forced to remind you that you lack context. Simply replying to the entirely of a long post does not provide context. I gave you ample opportunity to break down individual points so we could have an exchange, instead of your steam-of-consciousness.

You failed. Again.

Well, lets see what I can salvage from your post.
You see the future terrible economic situation of Russia
Wrong. I see possible terrible future outcome.
but you don't want to see what the economic situation of Ukraine is today.
I and others have amply declared that the economic situation for UKR is grim. But you wouldnt know that since you didnt read our posts.
Considering that the war is between Russia and Ukraine (with NATO support), some people may think that the economic situation of Ukraine could have something to do with it; like Ukrainians fighting forever, with sticks and stones, once Ukraine has no money.
I wager UKR would fight on without western support. We wont know until if/when that happens.
I could also mention (as cognitive dissonance, unless your are a psychologist and you are using the term in a strictly medical sense) that you point out at Patriots, but not at 2030, the Report or... Unicorns and Rainbows.
Literally has nothing to do with the point at hand.
I use irony, thank you, that you are able to read (or it is not that difficult to read or you are a genius) to point out a selective vision of reality. For some reason, I consider NATO support (or lack of) and Ukraine's economy relevant to a war between Russia and Ukraine.

No, you try and use irony but it fails do to unconnected points.
 
laugh as much as you want, it don't change the reality.

Your version of reality doesnt match the real one.
it's not every country you can regime change or kidnap the president and get away with it. NATO spent 5 billion dollars supporting democracy in Ukraine prior to the events of 2014, why didn't NATO spend some of that money supporting democracy in Saudi Arabia?
Whataboutism. Irrelevent.
why don't NATO leaders hold rallies and make big speeches in the centre of Paris in support of the French protesters?
Whataboutism. Irrelevent.
NATO involvement in the coup that regime changed Yan is very well documented.
Not really.
NATO countries should realise that the US won't be able to protect them if the shooting spills over from Ukraine inro NATO territory, especially NATO members close to Russia.
Protect them from what ? A sea of Russian contracnicks dying in masses for a few sq.km so Putin-Fuhrer can feel good ?

they should take the Iranian scenario into account, where the US failed to protect its allies from Iranian missiles
Whataboutism and a boring attempt to cast stones at other nations to make you feel better about the disgraceful performance of the RU armed forces.
 
Putin would be stupid to think that current refusing would not change in 5 years, decade or 50 years. So strategic outcome is the same for Russia anyway. I see his logic simple - we hit on our terms, or we wait and be hit on NATO terms. And NATO is not attacking unless the victory is guaranteed so they would find the way to debilitate Russia's return strike potential which is the very end of that country.
I guess Putin and his staff see the Dnieper river as a mighty obstacle for any Crimea related invasions, and those areas pretty much coincide with pro-Russian parts of Ukraine.

On the other hand, as years go by and Soviet Union becomes more and more history, by the means of propaganda and the school system those eastern parts of Ukraine would also turn anti-Russia so the whole Ukraine would end up a state that just can't wait to pop in as a NATO vanguard in an eventual war. That's a huge problem for Russia given that Ukraine was about 30% of Russia population pre-war and Russia is badly outnumbered by Europe alone already. And Ukrainians obviously make great soldiers, some of the world's best. So I figure Russia goes after increasing their population for near 50% population of Ukraine while cutting Ukraine to problem twice less. Integration would be rather seamless due to history and culture similarity which is rather obvious in Russian occupied territories today. They are just too alike and it doesn't even take a great effort to assimilate. Kind of if USA assimilated Canadian provinces. In like 50 years they'd just be the 51st state and no one would have problem with that.

So Russians just can't let Ukraine going all NATO happen and yes it was bound to happen. The same pulling string elites that lied about Saddam's WMD would construct their pretext for Russia anyway. Russia is just too much of an obstacle to them in multiple planes, to just let it exist.

Are you actually claiming that NATO would instigate a ground invasion into Russia ?
 
The objective I mean is a settlement that preserves a viable, independent Ukraine. Sustained support can make further Russian gains more costly and a settlement more attractive. Russia doesn’t have to become incapable of fighting for it to prefer an agreement. That requires neither an infinite war nor Russia’s collapse, and it is compatible with negotiating now.

You’re questioning whether the commitment is credible and whether it can work in time. Those are fair challenges to the strategy’s prospects but don’t make its rationale incoherent.
I have yet to figure out how to create multiple quotes (on a mobile device) after the recent site update, so in one chunk:

The objective of viable and independent state is no longer one in itself. Ukraine is “independent” today, but it is not viable. Which is exactly my argument. If the state is not functional, which is, in my opinion, the future of Ukraine, it will lose independence or cease to exist. People argue that we have not yet passed that point (future functionality), fine. How is continuation of this war advancing this objective? Not sure if I wrote in my post you are replying to that independence is currently a given (until it no longer is). Viability is not at all.

It is only the first days of November and they are experiencing blackouts (as well as water and heat supply disruptions) in Kyiv (and Odessa to a lesser degree) that they had experienced at the end of last winter. Costs are mounting. Funds for reconstruction are questionable at best. The only thing that keeps a good chunk of able (read working in private sector) population in the country is closed borders. And so on. Discussed at length previously.


Russian gains are overrated and Ukrainian gains are even more so. Ukraine can spend 4-6 months retaking 1/3 or 1/2 of the territory that Russia occupied in an average month last year all they want. Russia, on the other hand, can simply dig in and take a defensive posture with opportunistic attacks and offensives to keep the pressure up and they can/will still achieve their (declared) objectives. Ukraine will attrit itself, while Russia succeeds in complete destruction of critical infrastructure and industry in most of the if not the entire country (most certainly east of the river).

The problem I see with your argument is exactly that: the advances will become too costly, so they will agree to a settlement or it will become more attractive to do so. I think this misses the RU objectives entirely, but also… One issue is that we are being told for years now and every time as if it is a new thing that Russia loses 30K plus a month and have now moved into a territory of over 50K. Assuming this is true, we have not seen any evidence that that serves as a deterrent in any way or that Russian position is softening. The other issue is, and this is rsemmes’ point too, none of this is free of charge to Ukraine.

The new member kurgan mentioned above that the Ukrainian population was 30% of Russia. That number was actually slightly higher back in the USSR at some point. Today it is probably 1/7 or less (with about half collecting pension due to their age alone). We do not see many videos of people being forcefully pushed into cars and minivans in Russia to be sent to the frontline. Does it happen? Maybe, I have no idea. If it was a normal occurrence we would be seeing it plastered all over the social and serious media. There are reports, many questionable at best. In case of Ukraine, on the other hand, there are dozens a day. And so on.

In short, Russia is in an infinitely better position to keep at it than Ukraine will ever be. It’s just common sense (that is supported by facts). We can give them all the money they say they need and it will not change the basic math that includes manpower, air defense, strike capabilities, etc. Even if Russia decides to settle and give in on some terms at some point, Ukraine will still be worse off at than the point it was at some months or a month prior. One cannot change that equation.

Frankly, the most logical strategy for Russia would be exactly what I described: reduce the attacks at the frontline, dig in, and keep wrecking the country into nonexistence, until it can no longer function year-round. There is no comparison to Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, or whatever people propose - different age, development, needs, etc.


This brings us to compatibility with negotiations now. Yes, I fully agree with you here: keep fighting while negotiating now. The problem is that the returns are clearly diminishing here much faster for Ukraine than they are for Russia. This is not a sound strategy at all and will lead to disaster bigger than it already is. Again, here we have to separate the goals of independence and viability. The former was achieved in the first months of the war. The latter is becoming more elusive (even illusive, I argue) than before. Sure, some may argue this to be some propaganda and “fairy tails”, but this is real life.

The stories told to us and (even more so) to the Ukrainian population of some epic victories, ingenuities, greatness, etc are all nice and dandy. The reality is different.


Commitment and longevity is only relevant as far as the war is ongoing. There is no other commitment, which is important. The war will end and the current commitments will end with it (as long as it takes). Everyone on the UA supporting side is extremely careful to limit their commitments to the ongoing war (as long as it takes). One can probably even argue successfully that Ukraine is currently only fighting for those future commitments. You can probably guess where I am going to go next here, so I won’t elaborate.
 
I have yet to figure out how to create multiple quotes (on a mobile device) after the recent site update, so in one chunk:

The objective of viable and independent state is no longer one in itself. Ukraine is “independent” today, but it is not viable. Which is exactly my argument. If the state is not functional, which is, in my opinion, the future of Ukraine, it will lose independence or cease to exist. People argue that we have not yet passed that point (future functionality), fine. How is continuation of this war advancing this objective? Not sure if I wrote in my post you are replying to that independence is currently a given (until it no longer is). Viability is not at all.

It is only the first days of November and they are experiencing blackouts (as well as water and heat supply disruptions) in Kyiv (and Odessa to a lesser degree) that they had experienced at the end of last winter. Costs are mounting. Funds for reconstruction are questionable at best. The only thing that keeps a good chunk of able (read working in private sector) population in the country is closed borders. And so on. Discussed at length previously.


Russian gains are overrated and Ukrainian gains are even more so. Ukraine can spend 4-6 months retaking 1/3 or 1/2 of the territory that Russia occupied in an average month last year all they want. Russia, on the other hand, can simply dig in and take a defensive posture with opportunistic attacks and offensives to keep the pressure up and they can/will still achieve their (declared) objectives. Ukraine will attrit itself, while Russia succeeds in complete destruction of critical infrastructure and industry in most of the if not the entire country (most certainly east of the river).

The problem I see with your argument is exactly that: the advances will become too costly, so they will agree to a settlement or it will become more attractive to do so. I think this misses the RU objectives entirely, but also… One issue is that we are being told for years now and every time as if it is a new thing that Russia loses 30K plus a month and have now moved into a territory of over 50K. Assuming this is true, we have not seen any evidence that that serves as a deterrent in any way or that Russian position is softening. The other issue is, and this is rsemmes’ point too, none of this is free of charge to Ukraine.

The new member kurgan mentioned above that the Ukrainian population was 30% of Russia. That number was actually slightly higher back in the USSR at some point. Today it is probably 1/7 or less (with about half collecting pension due to their age alone). We do not see many videos of people being forcefully pushed into cars and minivans in Russia to be sent to the frontline. Does it happen? Maybe, I have no idea. If it was a normal occurrence we would be seeing it plastered all over the social and serious media. There are reports, many questionable at best. In case of Ukraine, on the other hand, there are dozens a day. And so on.

In short, Russia is in an infinitely better position to keep at it than Ukraine will ever be. It’s just common sense (that is supported by facts). We can give them all the money they say they need and it will not change the basic math that includes manpower, air defense, strike capabilities, etc. Even if Russia decides to settle and give in on some terms at some point, Ukraine will still be worse off at than the point it was at some months or a month prior. One cannot change that equation.

Frankly, the most logical strategy for Russia would be exactly what I described: reduce the attacks at the frontline, dig in, and keep wrecking the country into nonexistence, until it can no longer function year-round. There is no comparison to Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, or whatever people propose - different age, development, needs, etc.


This brings us to compatibility with negotiations now. Yes, I fully agree with you here: keep fighting while negotiating now. The problem is that the returns are clearly diminishing here much faster for Ukraine than they are for Russia. This is not a sound strategy at all and will lead to disaster bigger than it already is. Again, here we have to separate the goals of independence and viability. The former was achieved in the first months of the war. The latter is becoming more elusive (even illusive, I argue) than before. Sure, some may argue this to be some propaganda and “fairy tails”, but this is real life.

The stories told to us and (even more so) to the Ukrainian population of some epic victories, ingenuities, greatness, etc are all nice and dandy. The reality is different.


Commitment and longevity is only relevant as far as the war is ongoing. There is no other commitment, which is important. The war will end and the current commitments will end with it (as long as it takes). Everyone on the UA supporting side is extremely careful to limit their commitments to the ongoing war (as long as it takes). One can probably even argue successfully that Ukraine is currently only fighting for those future commitments. You can probably guess where I am going to go next here, so I won’t elaborate.

I agree Ukraine is in a very bad position, and further destruction makes recovery harder. But countries have recovered from devastating wars before. Ukraine's prospects depend on the settlement it gets and the support available afterwards.

I also don't see why Western support would simply end with the war. The UK's ten-year agreement explicitly includes post-war support, and the EU already funds recovery and reconstruction. Future funding is uncertain, but European governments have their own security interest in keeping Ukraine functioning.

Since we agree on negotiating now while continuing to fight, what would you have Ukraine and its backers do differently?
 
Wrong. I see possible terrible future outcome.
Whataboutism. Irrelevant.

Actually...
If that (possible terrible future outcome/future terrible economic situation) and "terrible" is still an exageration, is what you call "wrong" I have to say that you are right.
The future of Ukraine is not grim, it is economic collapse.
A mote it is to trouble the mind's eye.
 
I have yet to figure out how to create multiple quotes (on a mobile device) after the recent site update, so in one chunk:

The objective of viable and independent state is no longer one in itself. Ukraine is “independent” today, but it is not viable. Which is exactly my argument. If the state is not functional, which is, in my opinion, the future of Ukraine, it will lose independence or cease to exist. People argue that we have not yet passed that point (future functionality), fine. How is continuation of this war advancing this objective? Not sure if I wrote in my post you are replying to that independence is currently a given (until it no longer is). Viability is not at all.

It is only the first days of November and they are experiencing blackouts (as well as water and heat supply disruptions) in Kyiv (and Odessa to a lesser degree) that they had experienced at the end of last winter. Costs are mounting. Funds for reconstruction are questionable at best. The only thing that keeps a good chunk of able (read working in private sector) population in the country is closed borders. And so on. Discussed at length previously.


Russian gains are overrated and Ukrainian gains are even more so. Ukraine can spend 4-6 months retaking 1/3 or 1/2 of the territory that Russia occupied in an average month last year all they want. Russia, on the other hand, can simply dig in and take a defensive posture with opportunistic attacks and offensives to keep the pressure up and they can/will still achieve their (declared) objectives. Ukraine will attrit itself, while Russia succeeds in complete destruction of critical infrastructure and industry in most of the if not the entire country (most certainly east of the river).

The problem I see with your argument is exactly that: the advances will become too costly, so they will agree to a settlement or it will become more attractive to do so. I think this misses the RU objectives entirely, but also… One issue is that we are being told for years now and every time as if it is a new thing that Russia loses 30K plus a month and have now moved into a territory of over 50K. Assuming this is true, we have not seen any evidence that that serves as a deterrent in any way or that Russian position is softening. The other issue is, and this is rsemmes’ point too, none of this is free of charge to Ukraine.

The new member kurgan mentioned above that the Ukrainian population was 30% of Russia. That number was actually slightly higher back in the USSR at some point. Today it is probably 1/7 or less (with about half collecting pension due to their age alone). We do not see many videos of people being forcefully pushed into cars and minivans in Russia to be sent to the frontline. Does it happen? Maybe, I have no idea. If it was a normal occurrence we would be seeing it plastered all over the social and serious media. There are reports, many questionable at best. In case of Ukraine, on the other hand, there are dozens a day. And so on.

In short, Russia is in an infinitely better position to keep at it than Ukraine will ever be. It’s just common sense (that is supported by facts). We can give them all the money they say they need and it will not change the basic math that includes manpower, air defense, strike capabilities, etc. Even if Russia decides to settle and give in on some terms at some point, Ukraine will still be worse off at than the point it was at some months or a month prior. One cannot change that equation.

Frankly, the most logical strategy for Russia would be exactly what I described: reduce the attacks at the frontline, dig in, and keep wrecking the country into nonexistence, until it can no longer function year-round. There is no comparison to Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, or whatever people propose - different age, development, needs, etc.


This brings us to compatibility with negotiations now. Yes, I fully agree with you here: keep fighting while negotiating now. The problem is that the returns are clearly diminishing here much faster for Ukraine than they are for Russia. This is not a sound strategy at all and will lead to disaster bigger than it already is. Again, here we have to separate the goals of independence and viability. The former was achieved in the first months of the war. The latter is becoming more elusive (even illusive, I argue) than before. Sure, some may argue this to be some propaganda and “fairy tails”, but this is real life.

The stories told to us and (even more so) to the Ukrainian population of some epic victories, ingenuities, greatness, etc are all nice and dandy. The reality is different.


Commitment and longevity is only relevant as far as the war is ongoing. There is no other commitment, which is important. The war will end and the current commitments will end with it (as long as it takes). Everyone on the UA supporting side is extremely careful to limit their commitments to the ongoing war (as long as it takes). One can probably even argue successfully that Ukraine is currently only fighting for those future commitments. You can probably guess where I am going to go next here, so I won’t elaborate.
I cannot help but see that you are saying what I say, I didn't mention population per se, but with a lot more words.
 
Your version of reality doesnt match the real one.

Whataboutism. Irrelevent.

Whataboutism. Irrelevent.

Not really.

Protect them from what ? A sea of Russian contracnicks dying in masses for a few sq.km so Putin-Fuhrer can feel good ?


Whataboutism and a boring attempt to cast stones at other nations to make you feel better about the disgraceful performance of the RU armed forces.
you accuse people of lack of context in their responses and you respond with a total lack of context, you dismiss facts your not interested in talking about and you keep going on about Russian performance.

US, the most capable country in NATO couldn't unblock the little strait of Hormuz for how long now? NATO is finding it hard to defeat Iran and you think it will be easy to fight Russia? what do you think NATO will do, send in ground troops? they don't have the balls. strike Russia with missiles? Russia will strike back. the myth of NATO technological superiority over Russia died in Ukraine, it has not translated into any success story for Ukraine.
 
you accuse people of lack of context in their responses and you respond with a total lack of context, you dismiss facts your not interested in talking about and you keep going on about Russian performance.

US, the most capable country in NATO couldn't unblock the little strait of Hormuz for how long now? NATO is finding it hard to defeat Iran and you think it will be easy to fight Russia? what do you think NATO will do, send in ground troops? they don't have the balls. strike Russia with missiles? Russia will strike back. the myth of NATO technological superiority over Russia died in Ukraine, it has not translated into any success story for Ukraine.
Things have a tendency not to be black and white.

You read the post about the Zapad exercise here, not only the Dutch report, right? We have enough fairy tales around here already.
Myths don't die, that is the whole point. We have have less, we cannot stop repeating that we are better. Russia didn't face NATO, but limited quantities of NATO equipment in Ukrainian hands. Even with NATO planning, they still are two ex-Soviet armies.
 
“Every power plant in Ukraine has been damaged in one way or another by attacks,” the Ukrainian president said at a summit in Madrid on Thursday, adding that repair crews were working around the clock. “We need as much international cooperation as possible to continue rebuilding and repairing our energy system.”

Zelenski may be exaggerating in his begging campaign but, anyone believes that every refinery in Russia has been damaged and that Russia needs urgent international help to keep them running?
Meet reality, someone said.
 
I agree Ukraine is in a very bad position, and further destruction makes recovery harder. But countries have recovered from devastating wars before. Ukraine's prospects depend on the settlement it gets and the support available afterwards.

I also don't see why Western support would simply end with the war. The UK's ten-year agreement explicitly includes post-war support, and the EU already funds recovery and reconstruction. Future funding is uncertain, but European governments have their own security interest in keeping Ukraine functioning.

Since we agree on negotiating now while continuing to fight, what would you have Ukraine and its backers do differently?
I am not saying funding will simply stop after the war is over, but there is no certainty there whatsoever. In my opinion, there will be a significant reduction of financial support. I do not think there is any way around it and I almost take it as fact or a default assumption that is to be proven wrong.

The first link you provided (the UK pact) only states that the UK will support the funding via the IMF and open its private financial market so that Ukraine can look for financing its recovery that way. Maybe I missed some actual commitments (as in (tens of?) billions of pounds) because I only gave it a quick surface read?

The second link (the EU reconstruction commitment) is only talks about up to €50B in reconstruction funds guarantee, including up to €33B worth of eurobonds issued by the end of 2027 to finance the reconstruction needs via a loan of which over €32B had already been disbursed (with more than a year to go to the end of the planned timeline, which shows that the needs are significant and no one has any clue). A good chunk, if not all, of these funds went down the drain due to the ongoing and constant destruction.

Therefore, everyone is careful to limit the current commitments to the ongoing hostilities. And who is going to commit to any of this? Ukrainian needs are going to be nearly 6 times the pre-war GDP of the country according to the current RDNA5 estimate. Ukraine says about 7.5 times that. Double or triple of what has been so far provided to sustain the war (?). Most of the fraction of the funds that will be needed and were committed have already been spent. New funds are hard to come by and they are urgently needed now to prevent the collapse, apply some short-lived but expensive patches to the critical infrastructure, and simply to keep the war going.

Furthermore, consider that Ukraine had never recovered from the collapse of the Soviet Union (the only former republic to be in that position). It had been over 30 years before the invasion. Why do people think (in fact, many are absolutely convinced) it will flourish after the war with no infrastructure and limited funds? But anyway…

Mind you, I do not believe that much money is required. No one is building the most modern and advanced place in the world. The bare minimum to keep functioning is what everyone should lock their expectations at. That slashes the “fairy tale” (since we are all now using this term) amounts by probably 3 if not 4.

In terms of what to do differently… It is not an easy question to answer. I can say what I think should had been done differently (and I already have previously), but that does not matter today because it serves no purpose.

First and foremost, there should be more honesty for the public to chew on. There should be no illusions and delusions about what is happening. The ridiculous KIIS polls showing that almost everyone is ready to fight to the end until all their lands are returned and Ukraine is in NATO and the EU and whatever, while people not wanting to fight are being beaten in basements, need to stop. While people are accustomed to the reality they see around, they need to get accustomed to what’s to come. Brutal, I know.

We, the backers, can do a lot more. We can start real discussions with Russia. Whether Ukraine wants it or not is not exactly relevant. They can feel betrayed, throw tantrums (do whatever they want, frankly) - more on this below. The talks should be real/serious and include issues beyond Ukraine. Whether the US is part of the talks or not should not matter much in the initial stages.

We are currently entering (or already have) a stage where things have to be deescalated. The talks of war, massive weapons build up, missiles pointed at each other, including the talks of nuclear weapons placed in the immediate proximity to Russia, where the response to indications of a launch is becoming automatic due to the timing constraints, etc.

The thing is we have been through similar events or times before. The history shows that this situation is not stable (far from it) and it is simply inevitable that these talks will take place and some sort if resolution will emerge, regardless of what happens. Whether these talks take place after the annihilation of Ukraine (what was discussed previously) or before is up to us (and lesser extent Russia because, in my opinion, it will jump on the opportunity if it is real; but it is also us who is more interested in preservation of Ukraine and deescalation - Russia is already at war).

As for the betrayal and tantrums. In the meantime, the funding of Ukraine should continue (as long as it takes, but whatever we can). It should be made clear that future postwar support is assured within a well-defined scope (not hundreds of billions estimated), including (partially) from the Russian funds currently frozen (according to some breakdown as agreed to with Russia). It should also be made clear to the general (particularly Ukrainian) public that infinite sustainment of the war is not in the books because it is simply impossible. It is what it is, nothing wrong with real life and reconciliation to these facts has to happen. They can think it is a betrayal, it is not; but it is also irrelevant. The situation in Ukraine should be settled as a part of a broader agreement between Russia and European countries, outside of NATO. Guarantees to Ukraine would be part of this broader security (and beyond?) agreement. If the Balts, especially, and Poles, for example, oppose, that’s their prerogative, but… not sure what to say here as your EU decision making arrangement is rather weird and way more complicated than it should be. Hence, European countries and not the EU, though some treaty with the latter is highly preferable and doable. They (those opposing) will get on board anyway because the choices they have otherwise are… well, nonexistent. It all comes to beggars cannot be choosers, basically. The United States should only play a peripheral role, but should work on a separate agreement with Russia regarding their relationship after the fact. I couldn’t care less if we (in this case Canada) participate at all and would probably prefer the not if it comes to it.

The main thing here is that we can wait for a theoretical Russian strategic defeat as long as we want/can. Ukraine does not have that luxury. There will come a time when its fate will be decided without the so called Europe. While “Russia is not ready to negotiate”, Ukraine will simply make its own arrangements with Russia because we are still waiting for the right moment.

Sure, a rather Hobbesian approach, but is it not what we are quite literally observing today? You say that the Euros have their own security interests in keeping Ukraine as a functioning state. It seems to me that the focus on that has been lost and no one knows what the (achievable) goal is. Also functioning and stable with a bright future are not the same.

If you think about it, everyone was fine with the pre-war arrangement, a hardly functioning, heading into the abyss Ukraine. All that had to be done is to formalize that on paper before the stakes went up and work from there.
 
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