The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[Redshift]

No.

When you pull the trigger, you decide to pull the trigger, you are responsible.
Following your excuse, not your logic, Ukraine is responsible for the entire chain of events, for whoever wants to say so.

So if you were beating the crap out of me with a spade and I punched you back then I am responsible for punching you in self defense?

I wouldn't have done it if you hadn't hit me with that spade.

Victim blaming seems to be very popular with some people.

 

[Feanor]

This is obvious nonsense. Ukraine launched drone strikes, as a response, on Russian tanks because they were in Ukraine and invading Ukraine and then Russia installed cages. Those cages are there because Russia invaded Ukraine and not because Ukraine attempted to stop them with drone strikes.

Cause and effect isn't just a pair of events isolated from everything else.

Ok, but how does it change the basic point that Russia acts in response to Ukrainian actions? It doesn't mean Ukrainian actions are some sort of ultimate cause. But it does mean that when Ukraine does something it can lead to a Russian response. You seem to be married to the idea of discussing purely the moral aspects of the conflict. But on a practical level understanding what Russia will do in response to Ukraine has value even if you don't see it. And your own response betrays the silliness. The cages weren't there because Russia invaded. They were there because Ukraine was using drones. If Ukraine wasn't using drones, the way they are, Russia wouldn't be using cages to protect their tanks. The drones are a choice. Ukraine could have opted (in theory) for some other means. If Ukraine made heavier use of landmines, we'd probably see far more mine clearing equipment.

Remember this is a military and defense forum. This thread isn't a referendum on "is Russia right" (an argument nobody here is making by the way). It's a thread about a war.

 

[swerve]

IIRC Russia started putting cages on its tanks in response to Ukrainian use of top attack anti-tank missiles such as NLAW & Javelin.

 

[Feanor]

IIRC Russia started putting cages on its tanks in response to Ukrainian use of top attack anti-tank missiles such as NLAW & Javelin.

I think this was the thought process from observers who saw those first minimalistic roof cages in the early war, myself included. I'm not sure we ever got an official answer as to the thought process, or even an insider answer. In other words they could have been a response to quad-copter munition drops. But even if we go with that argument, the point remains. Russia acted in response to Ukraine having and using certain capabilities. Today's tank sheds certainly a response to drone usage. I think if Ukraine's main method of combating Russian armor had still been ATGMs we would have seen Russia doing something different.

I think Ukraine should be considering (and I believe is considering) how Russia will react to what Ukraine does, and vice versa. Both sides are trying to predict the actions of the other, and from an observer standpoint if this conflict interest someone, they certainly should consider why the countries act the way they do, and how their actions fit with the actions of the other.