The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[spsun100001]

Thanks for the post.

Sadly, it provides another hint that the MASC AEW system will be helicopter based. Completely third rate as a solution but typical of our ability to take an investment like the CV and make sure it never lives up to its proper potential.

 

[harryriedl]

Thanks for the post.

Sadly, it provides another hint that the MASC AEW system will be helicopter based. Completely third rate as a solution but typical of our ability to take an investment like the CV and make sure it never lives up to its proper potential.

to be perfectly honest im not bothered by helo AEW as the present sea kings are very capable[serchwarter radar] and nothing short of an E2 is superior of coarse its not the best but lets remember that there are no endless ranks of backfires, and not even China has the ablitiy to mass ASM to the level Russia could in the could war days.

a V22 solution could never meet the time scales involved and unless you want the needless hassle involved in creating a hybrid design and pushing up crew numbers you have no choice but helos. UAV should be able to cover the likely targets while the AEW helos can protect the carrier. so helo are the only game in town

the AEW debate brings up the ye old CTOL VS STOVL debate

 

[spsun100001]

to be perfectly honest im not bothered by helo AEW as the present sea kings are very capable[serchwarter radar] and nothing short of an E2 is superior of coarse its not the best but lets remember that there are no endless ranks of backfires, and not even China has the ablitiy to mass ASM to the level Russia could in the could war days.

a V22 solution could never meet the time scales involved and unless you want the needless hassle involved in creating a hybrid design and pushing up crew numbers you have no choice but helos. UAV should be able to cover the likely targets while the AEW helos can protect the carrier. so helo are the only game in town

the AEW debate brings up the ye old CTOL VS STOVL debate

I think the E2 is the only game in town (as did even the French!). The limited range and ceiling of a helicopter means that it's no use other than over the CBG itself. It couldn't accompany an arial strike group and it can't co-ordinate fighters onto targets.

The E2 can be used from a ski-jump but as someone pointed out earlier, an engine failure on take off would be catastrophic given there are no ejection seats. I think you're right Harry, that does bring it back to the need for a CTOL capability which the ship can accommodate on a waist catapult whilst preserving the ski jump. We should make that investment and buy the E2C rather than be the only large aircraft carrier with a toytown AEW solution IMHO.

 

[harryriedl]

I think the E2 is the only game in town (as did even the French!). The limited range and ceiling of a helicopter means that it's no use other than over the CBG itself. It couldn't accompany an arial strike group and it can't co-ordinate fighters onto targets.

The E2 can be used from a ski-jump but as someone pointed out earlier, an engine failure on take off would be catastrophic given there are no ejection seats. I think you're right Harry, that does bring it back to the need for a CTOL capability which the ship can accommodate on a waist catapult whilst preserving the ski jump. We should make that investment and buy the E2C rather than be the only large aircraft carrier with a toytown AEW solution IMHO.

i actually prefer the STOVL solution as for many many resaones which have been rehashed over and over in this thread. an E2 is unnecessary for the extra training involved a STOVL is much more affordable in regards to training not just of the aircrew but all the other crap which CTOL adds to a design. a major problem is that training could no long be done in Britain and the loss of a surge abililtiy which has save the RN arse. The French E2 are the exception to general carrier aviation.

 

[spsun100001]

i actually prefer the STOVL solution as for many many resaones which have been rehashed over and over in this thread. an E2 is unnecessary for the extra training involved a STOVL is much more affordable in regards to training not just of the aircrew but all the other crap which CTOL adds to a design. a major problem is that training could no long be done in Britain and the loss of a surge abililtiy which has save the RN arse. The French E2 are the exception to general carrier aviation.

Sorry, I might not have been clear. If I understand right the design enables a waist catapult (from which the E2 could operate) whilst preserving the forward ski jump for SVTOL operations by F35's. That would preserve the fighter surge capability you refer to.

Low flying, slow, limited range, unpressurised helicopters lacking fighter control capabilities are better than nothing but nowehere near (by a country mile) a proper AEW solution such as the E2. As has also been pointed out (I think here) any AEW helicopter solution is likely to rely on converting some ASW Merlin's further reducing our ASW capability.

 

[DefConGuru]

Anyone know anything about the 25 billion dollar submarine project being undertaken in Australia? 12 submarines to be acquired by 2025, the designs will take 17 years to develop, to replace the collins class. Thats an enormous amount of money (largest undertaking in history by Australia) and doesn't make sense when the government is looking for ways to skim the navy budget.

 

[Tasman]

Anyone know anything about the 25 billion dollar submarine project being undertaken in Australia? 12 submarines to be acquired by 2025, the designs will take 17 years to develop, to replace the collins class. Thats an enormous amount of money (largest undertaking in history by Australia) and doesn't make sense when the government is looking for ways to skim the navy budget.

There are a large number of posts about this in the Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates thread (e.g. Post 922).

Cheers

Tas

 

[harryriedl]

Sorry, I might not have been clear. If I understand right the design enables a waist catapult (from which the E2 could operate) whilst preserving the forward ski jump for SVTOL operations by F35's. That would preserve the fighter surge capability you refer to.

Low flying, slow, limited range, unpressurised helicopters lacking fighter control capabilities are better than nothing but nowehere near (by a country mile) a proper AEW solution such as the E2. As has also been pointed out (I think here) any AEW helicopter solution is likely to rely on converting some ASW Merlin's further reducing our ASW capability.

you still have to train at least 10 pilots and since EMCATs are a long way away you have to fit a dog boiler to generate steam for the arrestor and launcher on a ship, which is all electric. Plus fit all the piping and the training for the sailors for equipment which they are unfamiliar with all of which will at best give only about 200miles extra for roughly an extra billion all told [a very very rough pricing on the extras added including the rough mantanting of the cats and arrestors for a ten year period until they are replaced with EMCATs]for the extra cost you might as well go the whole hog

the Merlin's will certainly be new builds only the original AEW where based off the ASW version

 

[spsun100001]

you still have to train at least 10 pilots and since EMCATs are a long way away you have to fit a dog boiler to generate steam for the arrestor and launcher on a ship, which is all electric. Plus fit all the piping and the training for the sailors for equipment which they are unfamiliar with all of which will at best give only about 200miles extra for roughly an extra billion all told [a very very rough pricing on the extras added including the rough mantanting of the cats and arrestors for a ten year period until they are replaced with EMCATs]for the extra cost you might as well go the whole hog

the Merlin's will certainly be new builds only the original AEW where based off the ASW version

Not sure what the costs would be though a billion sounds steep. It would certainly cost much more than the helo option I agree. The 200 miles is not quite true though is it? You'd have much greater on station time (I think the E2 can also be refueled in the air), the extra height and more capable radar leads to a much greater coverage area, battlespace picture and control of air assets. I think that's worth paying for, though I fully recognise the governments first priority is to have the cheapest possible capability to any requirement so our debate is academic - we'll be getting a helicopter.

Sorry I can't source it (I'd be grateful to anyone who can) but I certainly read that the intention was to convert ASW Merlins and that there would be no new builds. I hope to be wrong on that.

 

[harryriedl]

Not sure what the costs would be though a billion sounds steep. It would certainly cost much more than the helo option I agree. The 200 miles is not quite true though is it? You'd have much greater on station time (I think the E2 can also be refueled in the air), the extra height and more capable radar leads to a much greater coverage area, battlespace picture and control of air assets. I think that's worth paying for, though I fully recognise the governments first priority is to have the cheapest possible capability to any requirement so our debate is academic - we'll be getting a helicopter.

Sorry I can't source it (I'd be grateful to anyone who can) but I certainly read that the intention was to convert ASW Merlins and that there would be no new builds. I hope to be wrong on that.

you do have a better on station time admittedly but for the extra price of fitting all stuff to get it on bored you could get many more merlin's AEW [the merlin's have got a i think 8+ loiter time possibly more with the extra fitted fuel tank so not that far behind an E2]

 

[TimmyC]

Just a point regarding AEW platforms and their radars such as Sea King ASaC & Searchwater, E-2C & APS-145, AWAC / Sentry & AN/APY-1/2 radars.
Apart from their ESM receivers how do they differ with regards to detecting active/passive airborne threats?
Is the RN searchwater radar, as the title suggests only practical use as a maritime surface contact searching radar? I understand it is LINK-16 capable but can it really manage the airspace in the same fashion as other AEW&C assets?
Sentry radars are so powerful they can can scan from the water/land below them to the stratosphere above them and obviously have the professionals on-board to manage and make sense of it all.
Are all of the above platforms capable of the same outcome but merely a question of ceiling, range, speed and loiter time?

On a different point do people expect the UK MASC requirement to be identical to the Italian Merlin AEW? ( Contedicavour?) Or Merlin with revitalised Searchwater?
Any info would be much appreciated, thanks.

 

[overlander]

with the rumours of delays in the construction of the cvf,s + the reduction of escorts to 19 (the 4 type 22 bacht 3 frigates will have no replacement and it,s clear that only 6 type 45 destroyers will be built) the future remains uncertain and pesimistic, we have seen ships like the lsd,s bay class acting as patrol ships in the caribbean and the only operational strike carrier hms illustrious with italian and Spanish harriers due to shortage of british harriers as many of them were deployed to afghanistan, sad panorama in my opinion.

 

[Alpha Epsilon]

with the rumours of delays in the construction of the cvf,s

Rumours are exactly that, useless information. I'm still expecting a signature in February.

+ the reduction of escorts to 19 (the 4 type 22 bacht 3 frigates will have no replacement and it,s clear that only 6 type 45 destroyers will be built)

Why is it clear? And from where do you have that about the T22s? I bet from some newspaper rumour.

 

[harryriedl]

with the rumours of delays in the construction of the cvf,s + the reduction of escorts to 19 (the 4 type 22 bacht 3 frigates will have no replacement and it,s clear that only 6 type 45 destroyers will be built) the future remains uncertain and pesimistic, we have seen ships like the lsd,s bay class acting as patrol ships in the caribbean and the only operational strike carrier hms illustrious with italian and Spanish harriers due to shortage of british harriers as many of them were deployed to afghanistan, sad panorama in my opinion.

i was wondering when you pop up when ever there a grim rumor you seem to pop up a few days later with wonderful comments describing the downfall of the R.N. I wonder weather you actually like Britain

 

[spsun100001]

I agree rumours are rumours and not all pessimistic runmours come true but some certainly have.

I'm generally in with the pessimists and I care passionately about the country and the Navy which is why I bother to lobby for them.

I think it's possible to be a pessimist and love your country. It can often mean you just don't think much of the folks running it.

Anyway, I'm probably straying into politics so sorry for that.

 

[riksavage]

Some good news.

The Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious left Portsmouth yesterday to lead a multi-national Task Group to the Indian Ocean for four months. The Task Group incorporates more than 2,500 personnel and 13 ships. During the deployment, the ship will carry Ground Attack Harriers flown by Royal Navy and RAF pilots from the Naval Strike Wing and No 1 (Fighter) Squadron Royal Air Force, both part of the UK's Joint Force Harrier. A total of 20 fixed-wing and rotary aircraft, including six Merlin helicopters from 814 Naval Air Squadron have deployed with the Task Group.

Good to hear the RN is deploying its own Harrier airwing, with continued operations in Afghanistan this has not always been the case, recent deployments have relied on Spanish and USMC Harriers to keep the ships crews current.

With the arrival of CAS Eurofighters in 2008, does anyone know whether all Harriers will be withdrawn from Afghanistan?

 

[swerve]

...

Good to hear the RN is deploying its own Harrier airwing, .

At last! It's been far too long.

 

[neil]

I wonder if the Harrier wing will be with the carrier for the duration of the deployment.. or if they will join the carrier only for a couple of days like the Spanish and Italians did during the recent Nato exercise off Croatia?

 

[harryriedl]

Some good news.

The Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious left Portsmouth yesterday to lead a multi-national Task Group to the Indian Ocean for four months. The Task Group incorporates more than 2,500 personnel and 13 ships. During the deployment, the ship will carry Ground Attack Harriers flown by Royal Navy and RAF pilots from the Naval Strike Wing and No 1 (Fighter) Squadron Royal Air Force, both part of the UK's Joint Force Harrier. A total of 20 fixed-wing and rotary aircraft, including six Merlin helicopters from 814 Naval Air Squadron have deployed with the Task Group.

Good to hear the RN is deploying its own Harrier airwing, with continued operations in Afghanistan this has not always been the case, recent deployments have relied on Spanish and USMC Harriers to keep the ships crews current.

With the arrival of CAS Eurofighters in 2008, does anyone know whether all Harriers will be withdrawn from Afghanistan?

Excellent news I will be looking forward to images of the tour . the RN have the best photographers.

I imagine they will be on for the whole tour as this is an Op not an exercise

 

[Jambo_100]

does anyone know anything about a replacement for the RN frigates? Also what is the whole agenda with 'europe's most powerful navy? Is that title still held by the RN or has that moron G.brown given it away to the french?