The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Systems Adict]

DSEI 2019 | Jane's 360

DSEI2019, the UK's major defence trade show, kicks off in a couple of days. Janes promising free access to their daily report.

It is strongly rumoured that the big T31 announcement will be made at the show, although I don't think there is any official confirmation of that.

Hmmm...

" Strongly rumoured "

Is this because the UK Telegraph newspaper printed a story (linked above in the thread), a few weeks ago & it's been taken up by affiliates & other press agencies ?

Even Janes articles list the following 'news item' as their last comment on T31...

Bids in for UK’s Type 31e frigate competition | Jane's 360

(NOTE : No words about Arrowhead winning the competition, just that the bid phase had closed back in June 2019 !)

Until UK PLC physically come out with a press statement, or some representative from UK MoD / Parliamentarian utters the words, it is pure speculation.

In the meantime, I could 'speculate' that YES, it will be picked, but it will be built in component parts across the UK & shipped to a central point, where it will be assembled. I could also speculate that the ARROWHEAD design will be used, & Babcock will lead, but that the equipment / weapons fit will be the proposed components & combat system that was destined for BAE's LEANDER variant for T31e.

However, with Harland & Wolf facing the wall & Ferguson's shipyard sitting on the naughty step, before it's nationalised by the Scottish government, I'm trying hard to work out WHO will actually build the warships....

 

[40 deg south]

Hmmm...

" Strongly rumoured "

Is this because the UK Telegraph newspaper printed a story (linked above in the thread), a few weeks ago & it's been taken up by affiliates & other press agencies ?

Even Janes articles list the following 'news item' as their last comment on T31...

Bids in for UK’s Type 31e frigate competition | Jane's 360

(NOTE : No words about Arrowhead winning the competition, just that the bid phase had closed back in June 2019 !)

Until UK PLC physically come out with a press statement, or some representative from UK MoD / Parliamentarian utters the words, it is pure speculation.

In the meantime, I could 'speculate' that YES, it will be picked, but it will be built in component parts across the UK & shipped to a central point, where it will be assembled. I could also speculate that the ARROWHEAD design will be used, & Babcock will lead, but that the equipment / weapons fit will be the proposed components & combat system that was destined for BAE's LEANDER variant for T31e.

However, with Harland & Wolf facing the wall & Ferguson's shipyard sitting on the naughty step, before it's nationalised by the Scottish government, I'm trying hard to work out WHO will actually build the warships....

Systems Adict
No disagreement from me on those points. I do note that in order to meet the (incredibly ambitious) time line, the design has to be chosen before the end of 2019. Speculation that it would have been announced at DSEI has been around since at least the start of the year, as it would be an obvious headline-grabbing announcement to make at a the UK's major defence trade show.

Like you, I'm far from convinced by the claims around Arrowhead, given the Daily Tele doesn't have a great track record on defence reporting in recent years. Although this 'scoop' did come from their business editor, who seems to be well-regarded.

The biggest question for me isn't whether there are the yards available to build T31, but whether there is a government capable of making a decision on anything at all in the current political chaos? The only answer is 'Who the hell knows?', until we actually get an official announcement.

Though I do note that a promise of work to keep Belfast's Harland and Wolff afloat would be a very juicy bone to throw the DUP, whose votes have been the only thing keeping the Conservative party in power...

 

[OldNavy63]

The UK’s Future Littoral Strike Ship (FLSS), article posted on Save The Royal Navy {for heaven’s sake! }, late last week.


A closer look at the Littoral Strike Ship concept | Save the Royal Navy

Okay, good to have of course, but would have worked well if deployed with the former HMS OCEAN providing greater airlift.

The flight deck as depicted is a bit too snug especially the two forward helo spots.

 

[OldNavy63]

Babcock’s Arrowhead has been given the nod for the Type 31e frigates.

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

Having made the decision, let’s hope they crack on and build (and crew), the ships that the RN so desperately needs.

 

[76mmGuns]

Babcock Arrowhead 140 wins the Type 31e frigate competition | Save the Royal Navy

This link isn't a pay site.

 

[OldNavy63]

Oops ! An alternative link:

Babcock announced as Royal Navy Type 31 frigate competition winner

 

[OldNavy63]

Babcock Arrowhead 140 wins the Type 31e frigate competition | Save the Royal Navy

This link isn't a pay site.

Cheers!

 

[76mmGuns]

I like the Arrowhead 140 as a frigate. Still can't see where the export orders will come from though. Lots of competition from Europe and Asia.

 

[OldNavy63]

I like the Arrowhead 140 as a frigate. Still can't see where the export orders will come from though. Lots of competition from Europe and Asia.

With the current state of the UK shipyards, it will be interesting to see:

- Which yards will construct the modules (Harland & Wolff & Ferguson Marine are in financial difficulties, Cammell Laird was part of the BAE team but could be open to proposals) and
- the weapons and sensors to be incorporated into the RN vessels and just how much equipment from the Type 23s can effectively be re-used in the Type 31e class.

 

[ASSAIL]

Cheers!

Cheers indeed, the BAE offering was deplorable.
Let’s only hope the budget is loose enough to adequately arm and outfit the ship so they will be capable fleet escorts instead of confining them to the “sovereignty” role so often quoted.
The T23 lethality level should set a minimum benchmark for the new frigates.

 

[Systems Adict]

With the current state of the UK shipyards, it will be interesting to see:

- Which yards will construct the modules (Harland & Wolff & Ferguson Marine are in financial difficulties, Cammell Laird was part of the BAE team but could be open to proposals) and
- the weapons and sensors to be incorporated into the RN vessels and just how much equipment from the Type 23s can effectively be re-used in the Type 31e class.

I am inclined to agree - it will be VERY INTERESTING.....

The whole idea of the project is to SAVE MONEY, make the ships efficiently & to the correct level, but without over-engineering them / adding expensive kit (hence 'The LIDL ships' moniker), but to maintain the industry, serious decisions need to be made about those yards mentioned above. X2 are effectively in receivership, so will need money to bail them out / prop them up, the 3rd wasn't part of the winning bid, but needs to be added to the project, to ensure that it survives.

As I have stated previously in this thread, I think that costs on cross-decking kit from T23 (other than that which has been stated in the bid/tender process (Radars & Missile systems), will also be expensive (likely more expensive than buying new). Thankfully, UK PLC were talked into NOT including certain systems in the costs, so they will be funded separately.

As an outsider looking in, IMHO, certain equipment that will be needed to make the ships work properly & integrate them into the current fleet structure / maintenance routines (so as to leverage cost benefits (savings) on training & equipment), that were previously documented in the bid, will need to be negotiated out. IIRC, Thales TACTICOS command system was offered, but with the amount of money & effort that the RN have spent on standardising the complete UK Naval Fleet over the last 20 years, I believe that the BAE Systems CMS will replace it / be integrated.

As a 'big picture thinker', I am also concerned on the strains that this project will put on overall UK defence funds, as well previous experiences of giving large scale, UK naval projects to companies who are effectively 'management consultants' not equipment manufacturers. Hindsight / review of the last 20 years & the costs of building in one place & shipping the components to another for assembly should warn people of these consequences. When a prime contractor starts demanding more funds to complete the project or goes bust / pulls out of a contract, leaving UK PLC to pick up the pieces. The LSD(A) project should be held up as warning...

Otherwise, the mentality to try & complete the T26 & T31 projects at the same time still makes my blood run cold, as we'll likely end up with no industry & no equipment in 10 - 15 years time...

 

[swerve]

Thales have said that the Type 31 will have Tacticos. Wrong? Or has transferring Artisan from T23s been dropped?
Victor Chavez, Chief Executive of Thales in the UK said:

“Thales is delighted to be part of the successful Team 31 working with Babcock and has been at the forefront of innovation with the Royal Navy for over 100 years.

“With the announcement today that Arrowhead 140 has been selected as the preferred bidder for the new Type 31e frigate, the Royal Navy will join the global community of 26 navies utilising the Thales Tacticos combat management system. Thales already provides the eyes and ears of the Royal Navy and will now provide the digital heart of the UK’s next generation frigates.”
Babcock Team 31 selected as preferred bidder for UK Type 31 frigate programme - Babcock International

The LSD(A) programme was clobbered by the decision to build two ships at a failing yard which no longer had enough skilled workers for political reasons. I don't think that applies to Babcock's Rosyth yard.

 

[StobieWan]

I am inclined to agree - it will be VERY INTERESTING.....


Otherwise, the mentality to try & complete the T26 & T31 projects at the same time still makes my blood run cold, as we'll likely end up with no industry & no equipment in 10 - 15 years time...

Well, looking at the timings, I'm baffled by the Type 31 build strategy if it's actually meant to be starting up some sustainable production - it looks rather more that we'll just see the 5 built then the work runs out and everyone gets paid off, leaving the BAE yard to carry on building the last of the 26's and voila..ain't no more work?

There's a Type 45 replacement in there somewhere but right now, I'd say getting like for like numbers seems wildly optimistic.

Not quite feeling it I'm afraid.

 

[40 deg south]

Thales have said that the Type 31 will have Tacticos. Wrong? Or has transferring Artisan from T23s been dropped?
Victor Chavez, Chief Executive of Thales in the UK said:

“Thales is delighted to be part of the successful Team 31 working with Babcock and has been at the forefront of innovation with the Royal Navy for over 100 years.

“With the announcement today that Arrowhead 140 has been selected as the preferred bidder for the new Type 31e frigate, the Royal Navy will join the global community of 26 navies utilising the Thales Tacticos combat management system. Thales already provides the eyes and ears of the Royal Navy and will now provide the digital heart of the UK’s next generation frigates.”
Babcock Team 31 selected as preferred bidder for UK Type 31 frigate programme - Babcock International

That caught my eye as well - there has been plenty of online speculation that the Thales CMS and radar would be swapped out for something already in RN service. If so, clearly no one has told Thales, who sound very upbeat in that article.

I remember reading that some of the smaller RN vessels (minesweepers, maybe?) used a system derived from Tacticos - if true it could be a reason putting it on the RN's new second-tier frigate.

 

[Systems Adict]

Welcome to my 1,000th post !!

Victor Chavez, Chief Executive of Thales in the UK said:

“Thales is delighted to be part of the successful Team 31 working with Babcock and has been at the forefront of innovation with the Royal Navy for over 100 years.

“With the announcement today that Arrowhead 140 has been selected as the preferred bidder for the new Type 31e frigate, the Royal Navy will join the global community of 26 navies utilising the Thales Tacticos combat management system. Thales already provides the eyes and ears of the Royal Navy and will now provide the digital heart of the UK’s next generation frigates.”
Babcock Team 31 selected as preferred bidder for UK Type 31 frigate programme - Babcock International

I do not doubt the validity of the comment nor the source, but find it strange as the RN have already spent the time & money to 'upgraded' to BAE CMS on just about every surface ship in their fleet & to their submarines.

Does that mean there's a likelihood that they'll now retro-fit TACTICOS to the rest of the fleet, to leverage compatibility, or will the ships be 'stand-alone' ?

I don't know - it is one of the questions that will need answered as the project progresses.

I remember reading that some of the smaller RN vessels (minesweepers, maybe?) used a system derived from Tacticos - if true it could be a reason putting it on the RN's new second-tier frigate.

I'm afraid that both classes / variants of mine sweeper have BAE CMS kit fitted...

Hunt Class Minesweeper / Minehunter - Naval Technology


Sandown Class - Naval Technology

I did go looking for Thales Naval Radar's, but unfortunately, I was getting mixed up between Thales & Terma, as they do have radars fitted to the Batch 2 River class OPV's...

Naval Radar Surveillance

 

[Systems Adict]

Well, looking at the timings, I'm baffled by the Type 31 build strategy if it's actually meant to be starting up some sustainable production - it looks rather more that we'll just see the 5 built then the work runs out and everyone gets paid off, leaving the BAE yard to carry on building the last of the 26's and voila..ain't no more work?

There's a Type 45 replacement in there somewhere but right now, I'd say getting like for like numbers seems wildly optimistic.

Not quite feeling it I'm afraid.

Based on T45's age & the tendancy for the RN to run vessels for a few years longer, with DARING only officially being handed over in 2009 & commissioned in 2010, I don't see the need for T45 to be replaced till 2035 / 2040.

I don't doubt that something will be put in place by the industry, to help flesh out the design, but as T45 started as CNGF / Project Horizon in the 1980's, I think they may have a few years left before industry REALLY starts getting involved with the design of the T45 replacements. Otherwise her design will be outdated, before they cut steel, as It's likely that many new / innovative technologies to reduce manning / maintain stealth / make the ship go further on less fuel / use of the whole of the transmission bandwidth to convey real-time video / data / non-rotating radar systems, using phased arrays for ALL systems (Comms included). The list is extensive & it will all be expensive !

Plenty of time to save up.....

SA

 

[Ananda]

Royal Navy’s Prest on Type 31 Frigate, Capabiliti…:

Video on interview from Defense & Aerospace Journalist with Type 31 Program Director. One thing that caught my attention is that eventough the Program Director says the will keep the production costs at 250 million pounds per ship, there will be additional costs on potential equipment development. At least if I heard it right (English is not my first language).

So based on this I presume the total costs of the project will be potentially higher than 1.25 billion pounds that's been circulated.

 

[40 deg south]

Royal Navy’s Prest on Type 31 Frigate, Capabiliti…:

Video on interview from Defense & Aerospace Journalist with Type 31 Program Director. One thing that caught my attention is that eventough the Program Director says the will keep the production costs at 250 million pounds per ship, there will be additional costs on potential equipment development. At least if I heard it right (English is not my first language).

So based on this I presume the total costs of the project will be potentially higher than 1.25 billion pounds that's been circulated.

Ananda - Your English is fine - that's what I heard too. Has there been any more reported news about Indonesia buying/building two Iver Huitfeldt-based vessels on license directly from OMT?

DSEI 2019: Royal Navy watchers a-quiver as Arrowhead 140 gets the go-ahead - NWI - Naval Warfare - Shephard Media

Good write-up from Shephard Media here. Clearly states that the original 250 million pound/ship price excluded 'government-furnished equipment', which was originally intended to be largely stripped from the retiring Type 23s. More recent comments have down-played the use of second-hand equipment, but it is clear that the weapons (and some sensors?) will fall outside the 250 million price cap.

DSEI 2019: Cammell Laird open to switching Type 31e allegiance - NWI - Naval Warfare - Shephard Media

Includes news that Cammel Laird, lead yard of the unsuccessful Leander bid, is open to changing sides and working on Arrowhead. A no-brainer decision, from a commercial viewpoint.

 

[Ananda]

Ananda - Your English is fine - that's what I heard too. Has there been any more reported news about Indonesia buying/building two Iver Huitfeldt-based vessels on license directly from OMT?

Not much, then what I and some Indonesian members wrote in Indonesian Navy Thread. Basically; The Mindef ask USD 750 mio for two full size Frigate (which Iver is presume as leading candidate), then occasionally comments from Navy Top Brass on Iver as leading candidate. I think at soonest by the end of year some more clarification can only come out, as Present Administration second term come after September. With Odense shipyard is closing, OMT now I believe try to sell the design with each nation shipyard building them under their supervision.

So USD 375 mio each thus I believe it's close to 300 mio Pounds. So I think they are going to after more or less at same ball park of Type 31 budget.

OMT as owner of Iver design is quite active in trying to sell the design as multipurpose Frigate, beside to UK (which they won), to Indonesia (which so far they are the leading candidate), I believe they are also offering to USN as cost effective Frigate for FFX..and they are quite active in looking to other potential nation in Asia.

 

[John Fedup]

There are now only 4 bidders for the FFX program now that LM has withdrawn. The only bidder that might offer the Iver design from OMT is HI but most rumours have them offering a modified national CG cutter design. It is interesting that they have been rather secretive about their offering.