By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.
Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by overlander, Dec 27, 2006.
Wrong thread, post deleted
Some RN news worthy of sharing....?
MoD lifts axe on three Royal Navy patrol ships to boost UK fisherman in scallop wars
Were they due to be paid off or was it budget cuts in the first place that was going to see the end them to save some coin?
Via E-mail: QUEEN ELIZABETH at Norfolk, USA.
We had four of 'em: three basic, & one slightly bigger & improved, HMS Clyde. They had plenty of life left, but the government screwed up badly on Type 26 planning. It had committed itself to a minimum level of annual spending on naval shipbuilding with BAE, to stop the erratic ups & downs which led to laying off skilled workers & mothballing or scrapping infrastructure, then having to rebuild at great expense. Unfortunately, despite in theory having locked itself into a steady naval shipbuilding programme by its legally enforceable spending promise, it then failed to take decisions on Type 26 in time to start building before other work was finished, so it was stuck with having to give BAE money with which BAE would keep the workforce on, doing something to keep up skills, & maintaining production facilities until they were needed again - but not building ships for the RN.
This was not thought a good idea, so instead, some new OPVs were ordered, to get something useful for the money that the government had to give BAE anyway. To replace the four old River-class Batch 1, we're getting five River Batch 2 OPVs: bigger, faster, more warship-like in construction standards & some elements of the equipment, all with helicopter decks, etc.
It was planned to sell the River Batch 1s as they were replaced by Batch 2s, to save crews & operating costs & recoup a bit of the cost of the new ships. But this was not a result of budget cuts: replacing four OPVs with five bigger, better ships was not a cut.
Between drawing the carrier build out, not ordering an 8th Astute and the Type 26 delays, I'm pretty sure they could have just ordered a pair of Type 45's and been done with it. Or order the 8th Astute plus a 7th Type 45.
The 8th Astute, however desirable, wouldn't have provided any work for the yards in which Type 26 will be put together, so wouldn't have affected the stop-start problem the minimum spending promise was meant to prevent. Also, the timing's wrong: it'd have come in too late.
Two more Type 45s could have done it, I think, built at a fairly leisurely pace.
That would have had a knock-on effect having to order new CMS and all the goodies that go with ie radar, mk8 etcetera so additional spending plus more manning problems, but would have gone someway for the escort numbers
...In other news, the UK's Channel 5 TV station has started airing a programme about life on board a Type 45 Destroyer (HMS Duncan), during her recent deployment to the Black Sea. The 1st Episode aired Monday 26th November.
I've attached a link below that contains some excerpts from the 2nd episode.
Please note : The HMS Duncan aspect complete at 5 :30 in the clip, that the link is from an open source, is not mine & contains other material relating to military ships that are not from the UK, firing off guns & missiles.
As someone who is involved in UK shipbuilding, the prospect of seeing ships 7 & 8 of the Type 45 class would have, as has been implied, beneficial to the shipbuilding industry & the Royal Navy. Unfortunately, any prospect of this event happening, sailed off into the sunset by 2010 at the very latest, but is more likely to have been dead in the water circa 2008.
The reasoning for this statement is the manufacturing capability & lead time for the equipment. Yes, the design plans are there & right now BAE could effectively build any nation who had the funds, a Type 45 hull. The reality is that this new hull wouldn't / couldn't have the same engines / gearboxes / radars & a myriad of other equipment that is needed to allow a complex warship to operate.
Manufacturing lead times to start production lines back up for equipment that is now effectively 10 years out of date would be an integral issue. Some of the technologies have moved on, manufacturers have folded / went bust, some companies have been bought out, or sold on the licensing for their kit. The list goes on & on. Even if such a hull was to be ordered, we're probably talking about a minimum of 5 years before a completed warship could be handed over to the customer.
Ignoring the facilities to construct such a warship in the UK right now, there's the manpower issue in manufacturing that is effecting most 1st world countries. Manpower is becoming a finite resource, as the population versus generation gap has started to kick in. In the western world there are more people over 50 employed in engineering, than there are young people to fill those posts, as our population ages. In the next 5 to 10 years I believe we'll be at a nexus point, as we start hitting the low points in birth rates from the 70's, 80's & 90's, meaning that we won't have enough trained staff to go round ALL the major, long term engineering projects that have just started or are planned over that time. .
All these points culminate to paint a bleak picture & may explain why some countries are looking to extend ship-build / manufacturing lines for 15 - 20 years on one class of warship, so that knowledge & technology transfer can happen sufficiently to allow the younger generation to become suitably qualified, experienced engineers.
17 Russian fighter jets swarm around HMS Duncan early '18 [5min 27sec]
17 aircraft, v 48 missiles?
Are the Aster 15/30,s packed in single shot VLS?
No quad packing?!
Aster isn't capable of being quad packed in the sylver vls. 48 cells, 48 missiles.
Looks like Channel 5 in the UK is rather pee'd off that their show is being cut up into segments & posted all over youtube, as it's asked that they be taken down !
In a related link there is a commentary describing the content, mixed with stock video of Duncan testing her 4.5 inch & 30mm guns + Phalanx. Also featuring is one of the ex-UK RN Type 22 Frigates (London or Coventry) that was purchased by Romanian Govt in the early 2000's..
Aster is the full size of the cell - it's a pretty chunky missile. CAMM should quad pack but I don't think it's been cleared for Sylver, nor has the RN made any overtures about using it on Type 45 - I think it'd be very useful if they did however.
It puzzles me is why the Sylver VLS wasn't selected for the Type 26. That is of course unless this signals a move away from European designed missiles and a shift towards US designed systems.
However the UK is unlikely to adopt weapons such as the ESSM or Standard missiles and is currently working with the French on the Perseus antiship/land attack missile.
The Type 45 has aster and is really a specialised air defence platform.
The Type 26 is more general purpose, ASW, air defence, and perhaps land strike, although I do wonder if it will be fitted with just camm or/and Aster. The US VLS is also essential for exports, which was a key carrot for the type 26 and it has been fairly successful at that. However, there it considerable compatibility between euro missiles fitting in US VLS.
Brexit does put a line under future European defence collaborations perhaps not being a done deal.
The Type 26 looks to be a capable platform for future expansion. If the UK was interested in creating a higher end destroyer out of it, then I think there would be some interested in that and an evolved Type26/Hunter platform would be a strong candidate building off the existing strengths. Dimentionally the Type 26/Type 45 aren't hugely different.
I think they'd be crazy if they didn't. Replacing 8 Aster 15s with 32 Sea Ceptor represents a significant capability jump. From 48 missiles to 72.
I remember a leaked written reply from the RN to the question of what weapons would be used from the T26 mk41 launchers. It mentioned (possibly) VL ASROC, Tomahawk Land Attack Missile and future developments.
Those weapons would be a powerful addition to the ship, adding to it's ASW capability and giving a very powerful LA capability.
Speculating on future developments, I'm sure one of the European navies will develop a naval version of CAMM-ER at some point (I'm looking at you Italy and Spain), which could be something the RN may adopt in the future, with LM/MBDA creating a mk41 quad pack option like they did with CAMM and ExLS.
VL versions of the JSM and SPEAR would also be very useful weapons.
The names of all x8, Type 26's have now been officially release by the UK MoD...
All 8 Royal Navy Type 26 frigates named as HMS Edinburgh is announced
Extracted from the link :
"HMS Edinburgh will be the seventh Type 26 frigate and the seventh Royal Navy ship to bear the name.
The last HMS Edinburgh was a Type 42 destroyer which entered service in 1985. She was also the last T42 to decommission, in 2013 after 28 years of service.
Edinburgh is joining the previously-named Glasgow, Cardiff, Belfast, Birmingham, Sheffield, Newcastle and London. The frigates are referred to as City-class, in confirmation of the historic bond between the Royal Navy’s fighting ships and the major cities as centers of commerce and industry."
In the episode where the T45 was buzzed by 17 aircraft the ship was not alone. There was a Romanian frigate and 2 Turkish frigates with it.