The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

I will confess that I don't really understand what the target market is for this concept. It's size limited payload is just a mini gun and a pair of hellfires, that suggests to me that it is intended for the counter insurgency market, but it's an LO airframe, and a small one at that, which means it's probably got a fairly short range.

I think it is too small to be particularly useful.

That probably is the reason why it's still only a concept. ScanEagle is good because it's cheap, it's a simple airframe with a really good set of optics on it for 'eyes on' situations.

But VARIOUS?

Seems just a bit crap IMO. Factor in the cost of developing it and i'd rather not.

 

[Systems Adict]

I will confess that I don't really understand what the target market is for this concept. It's size limited payload is just a mini gun and a pair of hellfires, that suggests to me that it is intended for the counter insurgency market, but it's an LO airframe, and a small one at that, which means it's probably got a fairly short range.

I think it is too small to be particularly useful.

I'm assuming that it's THIS that you speak highly of...

VARIOUS · Lockheed Martin


Sexy Utoob CGI videos just don't do it for me any more. Have LM put this on the table, as a concept, or do they actually have a demonstrator ?

I think you can bet your bottom dollar that a 35% minimum of the total costs from the 1st physical order will be used to actually make the demonstrator. Big multi-nationals don't tend to front up R&D costs nowadays, they make the customer do that....

 

[swerve]

That's the one. No demonstrator, still only a concept 8 or 9 years after it appeared.

If it was bigger (hence longer-ranged) & faster, I can see value in it. But as said, why make something LO when it looks from its size & performance as if it's meant for COIN?

 

[Volkodav]

I find it quite interesting, I could imagine three or four of them being carried by a frigate or destroyer sized vessel and being used to increase their sensor horizon as well as providing an extra counter to swam attacks if fired with a larger number of smaller missiles or rockets.

 

[swerve]

You don't need an LO drone for that. You can optimise it for other characteristics.

 

[Volkodav]

You don't need an LO drone for that. You can optimise it for other characteristics.

True a Fire Scout, or similar would do the job quite well until you enter a high threat scenario, then the LO would be of value. Also I could imagine them being used to shadow unfriendly fleet units or reconnaissance of defended land targets.

 

[swerve]

Yes, LO is useful in a high threat area - but look at the performance of that thing. Anyone with armed jet trainers could easily hunt it down in daylight.

The combination of LO with WW2 piston engined fighter speed & a pretty low service ceiling seems a bit incongruous to me.

 

[RobWilliams]

Just seems a bit redundant being VLO, if you're plinking at terrorists then we don't need it. There's not really much that thing does that an F-35 can do better/faster/repeatedly/safer.

The USN is developing UCLASS to be an enduring tanker/ISR platform, it works for them because of their configuration. Because of how the UK has chosen to do things - STOVL - that's a very limiting factor.

IMO in terms of UCAV development, it should be in the RAF domain with the FCAS.

 

[Volkodav]

So basically what they need is a higher performance LO version for high end ops.

 

[swerve]

I'd find that interesting. Something cheaper than an F-35B, & not risking a pilot, but with better performance than Various.

For extending the range of sensors, plinking pirates, etc, I agree with Rob that VLO isn't needed.

 

[RobWilliams]

So basically what they need is a higher performance LO version for high end ops.

I'd even say that wasn't neccesary, for the UK F-35B is as good as it gets.

Something closer to something like Watchkeeper or Reaper for low intensity operations is more within reach and - arguably - the more appropriate type of UCAV the UK could deploy from ships.

I know neither of those are CVF-capable, but a simple drone for plinking at terrorists would be better.

But even then the RAF has been doing that well enough for a while now so there's a case for that not even being worth the money. It's just not a priority; or even a req, just a 'nice to have'.

The only real usable option - IMO - is Integrator, the bigger brother of Scan Eagle. It uses the same launch/recover system as Scan Eagle and the USMC are looking at modular payloads including a synthetic aperture radar and a laser designator.

 

[the concerned]

With that in mind I would like to see the UK government look into replacing the reaper with the avenger (predator c) as with the extra speed and payload this could be a valuable asset for british forces.

 

[RobWilliams]

Not really sure if speed is that critical, UAVs don't really respond to TIC and they mainly just loiter.

Same with payload, the figures are something like 10% of all flights result in weapons releases and even smaller are the proportion which take up 4 Hellfire + 2 Paveway IV.

 

[RobWilliams]

BBC News - UK to establish £15m permanent Mid East military base

UK to expand the Mina Salman Port in Bahrain to make it a permanent RN base in the region capable of taking our carriers and Type 45's.

People have been assuming it'll be an airbase with an RAF presence too, but that's gone a bit odd. When the UAE looked like they were going to order a bunch of Typhoons there was a lot of talk about a continuous RAF presence at the Al Minhad airbase.

Talk of purchasing Typhoon is done and so has - publicly - the idea of making Al Minhad a critical British station in the Gulf.

 

[Nick underscore]

Interesting on the new base presence for the RN. Makes sense and could open the door for further cooperation.

To think we have come full circle in some ways

 

[swerve]

...
The only real usable option - IMO - is Integrator, the bigger brother of Scan Eagle. It uses the same launch/recover system as Scan Eagle and the USMC are looking at modular payloads including a synthetic aperture radar and a laser designator.

Various navies have bought the Camcopter S-100, & there's at least one similar product on the market.

 

[kev 99]

Various navies have bought the Camcopter S-100, & there's at least one similar product on the market.

I wouldn't be adverse to seeing Camcopter bought for the RN, it would certainly be useful on the OPVs and would certainly offer a solution to the no hanger problem.

 

[RobWilliams]

Just looking into it and it can carry some pretty good payloads. I'd previously just dismissed it as 'a bit crap' but never really looked into it in great detail.

I've seen it with a pair of Martlets but i'd sooner not have them and try milk a bit more endurance out of it.

Camcopter S-100 Unmanned Air System (UAS) - Naval Technology

The system can carry synthetic aperture radar (SAR), maritime radar, ground penetrating radar (GPSAR), signal intelligence (SIGINT) and communication intelligence (COMINT), communication relays, ATMID all terrain mine detector, light detection and ranging (LIDAR) scanners, loudspeakers, transponders, dropping containers and under-slung loads.

day and night electro-optical / infra-red (EO / IR) sensors [mentioned elsewhere but may as well include it in the same quote]

Liking the idea though.

 

[swerve]

The SAAB Skeldar is similar to the S-100. & has at least one customer.

 

[kev 99]

The SAAB Skeldar is similar to the S-100. & has at least one customer.

Yes, bigger, heavier but looks like another good system.

I really don't understand why Agusta Westland or BAE, combined or on their own haven't tried to offer something similar, it has been obvious for some time that there is a market for this type of product.