The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

fretburner

Banned Member
With the SAMP/T test success, do you think some Type 45s be used for ABM in the future? Some news sites also said the Type 45 is also joining the USN in an ABM exercise, though I'm not sure what they will do exactly there.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
If anything it'd probably be just to see how the Type 45 in her current configuration is at initial tracking of ballistic missiles, to actually track them sufficiently to make them targetable would require the Dutch solution in the form of SMART-L Mk2. Baby steps, essentially, just to see what she can do right now. That's my guess.

In other news there's been unconfirmed reports on other forums & people saying they've seen footage of thee foreward island in place on HMS Queen Elizabeth. Probably be widespread news about it later in the day as it was done earlier today.

HMS Dragon's off on her maiden deployment to the Middle East on the 19th, hopefully see some cracking images of her with US CVN's in the future.

HMS Dragon sails for maiden deployment | Royal Navy
 

kev 99

Member
If anything it'd probably be just to see how the Type 45 in her current configuration is at initial tracking of ballistic missiles, to actually track them sufficiently to make them targetable would require the Dutch solution in the form of SMART-L Mk2. Baby steps, essentially, just to see what she can do right now. That's my guess.

In other news there's been unconfirmed reports on other forums & people saying they've seen footage of thee foreward island in place on HMS Queen Elizabeth. Probably be widespread news about it later in the day as it was done earlier today.

HMS Dragon's off on her maiden deployment to the Middle East on the 19th, hopefully see some cracking images of her with US CVN's in the future.

HMS Dragon sails for maiden deployment | Royal Navy
There's a picture on warships1.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
With the SAMP/T test success, do you think some Type 45s be used for ABM in the future? Some news sites also said the Type 45 is also joining the USN in an ABM exercise, though I'm not sure what they will do exactly there.
Live tracking and training.
The USN will be doing testing anyways, might as well invite your friends to play as well.
 

fretburner

Banned Member
If anything it'd probably be just to see how the Type 45 in her current configuration is at initial tracking of ballistic missiles, to actually track them sufficiently to make them targetable would require the Dutch solution in the form of SMART-L Mk2. Baby steps, essentially, just to see what she can do right now. That's my guess.
But is/was ABM part of the Type 45 "upgrade plan"? Or even something on their "wishlist" or possibilities?

In other news there's been unconfirmed reports on other forums & people saying they've seen footage of thee foreward island in place on HMS Queen Elizabeth. Probably be widespread news about it later in the day as it was done earlier today.
Another question: Has the RN reverted back to the F-35B?
 

kev 99

Member
But is/was ABM part of the Type 45 "upgrade plan"? Or even something on their "wishlist" or possibilities?
Yes, it appeared in the T45 brochure that was released when Dairing joined the RN so it was definitely on a "wishlist" somewhere

Another question: Has the RN reverted back to the F-35B?
YES!

The decision for CVF to revert back to it's original STOVL configuration was made sometime last year.
 

fretburner

Banned Member
Very cool. I hope the Europeans would get BMD-capable ships. I know the Spanish have Aegis Ships, but I don't think they're going make those into ABM ships.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Dutch are giving their four De Zeven Provincien AAW ships the radar modifications needed for ABM capability. Missiles haven't been funded, but the ships will be ready to take them.
 

deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hi

FF2020 and beyond is overall looking quite good for the Royal Navy. As far as I can gather carrier strike is expected to be revived with both carriers commissioned and rotating in and out of a state of reduced readiness (to ensure continual carrier strike capability). Given current [speculated/semi official] delivery dates, by 2023 the RAF and FAA should receive all 48 initial orders of F-35B. 48 airframes allow for at-least 2 front-line squadrons of 12 F-35s (one RAF, one FAA), with an additional OCU (reserve) squadron of 6 F-35s. The remaining 18 F-35s would serve as attrition/spares. At a push 3 front-line squadrons could be formed - however this would eat into the attrition airframes and the 3rd squadron would rarely (if ever) be at full strength. A follow on order post 2023 of around 12 more F-35Bs would need to be made to ensure 3 fully operational front-line squadrons. However for now it is safe to bet on 2 f-35 squadrons available during the early years of the QE class carriers.

Agree with pretty much all you said other than your opener largely because I can see no reason for a large attrition reserve until the aircraft nears the end of its production run. I think that squadron sizes are destined to rise to reduce overall manpower overheads so would expect/hope to see two of 18 from the initial tranche.

As yet I have not (or do not remember) seeing any statement reducing the overall buy from the 138? originally stated (my glass is half full) and would hope for three tranches arriving at 5 of 18 (2 RN 3 RAF) or 4 of 24 two each service.

The whole MHPC concept appeals to me I would like to see it brought forward five years, perhaps start with four for the RNR and replace the rivers early we seem to be able to sell/move our old ship’s on.

Deepsixteen
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Everything official from placed like Lockheed Martin commenting on numbers has still been 138, but I would bet that it's been reduced. Hopefully still above 100 but sure as hell more than the 48 which some people on other sites are determined to believe is the maximum :rolleyes:

Chances are there won't ever be a *pure* FAA squadron, the RAF will still need their pilots to get as much experience as the FAA pilots in the case of needing to swell F35 numbers.

Gotta agree though, 18 seems a huge number from the original 48 for attrition + spares considering the production line's going to be open for quite a while.

Should also emphasise that my understanding is the current 48 figure includes the first 3 airframes (2 at the mo + 1 delivery in April) which will remain in the US as the UK's contribution to the testing fleet etc, that's what i've been told anyway.
 
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Seaforth

New Member
Queen Elizabeth stern now in place

The stern is now in place - looks like it has a built-in "wharf" for ships boats to tie up against, and steps for divers to pop down and check out the rudders and props.

Neat planning!

Welcome to Flickr!

The more I see of this ship the more innovative it looks.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Doubt it's for boats, the ship's gunna have a stern embarkation area like what they've got on Ocean which extends out away from the ship so putting a boat there's going to be pointless.

Then I'd guess the steps will probably be submerged anyway, so wouldn't be much use to the divers.

I could be grossly overestimating how low she'll sit in the water, but I reckon it'd easily cover the steps.
 

deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Doubt it's for boats, the ship's gunna have a stern embarkation area like what they've got on Ocean which extends out away from the ship so putting a boat there's going to be pointless.

Then I'd guess the steps will probably be submerged anyway, so wouldn't be much use to the divers.

I could be grossly overestimating how low she'll sit in the water, but I reckon it'd easily cover the steps.

Hi Rob
I think that the water line could be roughly at the bottom step possibly lower and the round shapes could be bollards for boats when at anchor.
Deepsixteen
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Bearing in mind that it's the lower block of the pair which make up the stern in total though? That's not the final arse of her there's another block to lift onto that.

EDIT: Well what d'you know, it does come up to just below the steps, or at least is supposed to.
 
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By Richard Beedall.


2012 was yet another dismal year for the Royal Navy, although it might just mark the lowest point in the Naval Service’s long and painful decline since World War 2. A slight ‘upward tick’ appears to be in prospect as new ships, submarines, helicopters and aircraft enter service – with the alternative being the very public collapse of any pretence that the United Kingdom (still one of the five permanent UN Security Council members) is even a second-rank naval power.

Which way things will go remains far from clear – it comes down to money and political will power. The Prime Minister, David Cameron, has prevaricated as to whether the UK’s Defence Budget will be protected from yet more cuts after the unexpected 2% (about £1 billion) immediate reduction which was announced on 5 December 2012, whilst Treasury officials (e.g. Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander) are openly seeking further cuts in the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) planned for 2015. The previous SDSR of 2010 reduced defence spending by 8.5% in real terms, and cut the front line strength of the Royal Navy by approximately 20% - on top of a similar 20% reduction since 2004.



A graphic from Save the Royal Navy, showing the decline in warship numbers

2012 was the first full year for the SDSR 2010 down-sized RN – with no aircraft carriers, only 3 or 4 operational nuclear attack submarines (all over 20 years old), and a total force of just 19 frigates and destroyers. The Royal Navy (RN) is now about two-fifths of the size it was at the end of the Cold War in 1990, but its tasks have not been cut proportionally - the government still expects the RN to fulfil tasks around the world. In 2012 it finally proved impossible for the RN to hide the impact of the huge mismatch between requirements and means. The temporary remedies adopted in 2011 (during the Libyan Civil War) such as delaying the decommissioning of some frigates, and grossly over working other ships and submarines ceased to be viable. Some deployments in 2011 and 2012 reached 9 or 10 months and were quickly followed by a second deployment, acceptable in wartime but far exceeding the MoD's 'harmony' guidelines which permits one six-month deployment for personnel in every 30 months.

During 2012 the RN was increasingly reduced to meeting the most urgent operational requirements and politically directed tasks with whatever assets it could scrape together. A few examples:

The submarine HMS Triumph arrived back in Portsmouth on 30 July 2012 having spent 13 out of the previous 17 months operationally deployed.
The brand new Type 45 destroyer HMS Daring spent much of her first operational deployment (January to August 2012) on anti-piracy patrols off the Somalia coast, a role requiring a far less sophisticated and expensive ship. She was replaced (August to December 2012) by her even newer sister ship, HMS Diamond.
In September 2012 RFA Argus (the RN’s only Casualty Treatment Ship) was deployed to the West Indies on Atlantic Patrol Task (North) – a role normally undertaken by a frigate or destroyer.
In October, the Royal Navy’s only major formation – the Response Force Task Group (RFTG) – headed by fleet flagship HMS Bulwark, and the helicopter carrier HMS Illustrious - deployed to the Mediterranean Sea for amphibious exercises. Unfortunately this deployment revealed the weakness of the RN all too painfully. With no aircraft carriers left in service, the task group was reliant on the French Charles de Gaulle carrier group for air cover and strike. No destroyer (Type 45 or Type 42) was available for missile-based air defence, and just two Type 23 frigates escorted the 'high value' units. Similarly no SSN was available for land attack, intelligence and other functions. No RFA’s were available for at-sea replenishment duties, and only one Bay class auxiliary landing ships was present to provide amphibious logistic support. Finally, as RFA Argus was in the West Indies, only make shift hospital facilities were available.
The situation had clearly become both embarrassing and unacceptable, and a senior officer publically admitted this when in November 2012 the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Sir David Richards, made a speech at Oxford University in which he said that he was particularly worried about the size of the fleet and suggested that a shortage of ships meant resources were being allotted to the wrong tasks. He highlighted the inefficiency of this approach by stating that “You get to this ridiculous situation where in Operation Atalanta off the Somali coast, we have £1 billion [Type 45] destroyers trying to sort out pirates in a little dhow with RPGs [rocket-propelled grenades] costing $50, with an outboard motor [costing] $100, …. That can’t be good. We’ve got to sort it out.”

Events in 2012 have continued to show that the SDSR 2010 decision to immediately scrap the UK’s only aircraft carrier, HMS Ark Royal, was a huge mistake – and contrary to international trends such as the commissioning by China of its first aircraft carrier. Regenerating some form of RN carrier capability has become a high political and military priority, but the most amazing development of 2012 was the government U-U-turn on the variant of the Joint Strike Fighter to be purchased by the UK.

Perhaps the only sensible decision in SDSR 2010 was to switch from buying the short take off and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B variant of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), to the far more capable F-35C carrier variant (CV). This would also involve the fitting of one the two new Queen Elizabeth class carriers with catapults and arresting gear (CATOBAR, or ‘cat and trap’) at a cost of about £1 billion in order to operate the F-35C. With this decision it suddenly it looked like the RN would once again have a true strike carrier capability – indeed second only to the US Navy. By early 2012, the redesign work was well advanced, and the RN had nearly 100 personal either seconded to the US Navy or about to be seconded to the French Navy, in order to relearn the skills needed for 'traditional' carrier operations. It all then went wrong….

In 2003, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) selected an “adaptable” design for its Future Aircraft Carrier (CVF), which was intended to allow an easy conversion from STOVL to a CATOBAR configuration. Unfortunately, as the design moved towards construction, maintaining adaptability became a very low priority for the Aircraft Carrier Alliance is building the ships. By early 2012 it was clear that converting the carriers to CATOBAR would be a very major job, and the cost estimate had risen to £2 billion (including about £600 million for equipment purchased from the USA) for HMS Prince of Wales, and £3 billion for the constructively more advanced HMS Queen Elizabeth. The MoD considered this unaffordable and on 10 May 2012 Defence Secretary Philip Hammond announced to Parliament that the government had decided to revert to the F-35B rather than the F-35C, and would complete both aircraft carriers with "ski-jumps" in the STOVL configuration. The £100 million already spent on the redesign was written off.

The reversion to the F-35C effectively meant the death of the ‘carrier strike’ concept, and the RN’s hopes of owning and operating a new generation of fast jet aircraft. The MoD intends to buy 48 F-35B’s by 2022, including 3 test and evaluation phase aircraft which will probably never be converted to an operational configuration. Delivery of the first production standard aircraft should be in 2014 (although as it won’t be ordered until 2013 as part of LRIP Lot VII, a 2015 delivery date seems more probable), with flying trials on HMS Queen Elizabeth beginning in 2018. The Royal Air Force (RAF) plans to form the first front line JSF squadron - No. 617 Squadron RAF - of 12 aircraft (9 deployable) in 2020/21. Whilst there is speculation that in the longer term there could be two front line F-35B squadrons, each of nine aircraft – one RAF manned and one Fleet Air Arm manned - there is no evidence to back this up.

Given the very small number of carrier capable aircraft likely to be available in face of other competing commitments, the RAF is advocating that the model adopted in the later years of the Invincible class aircraft carriers should be followed. This allows for one operational aircraft carrier, which would embark a “single figure” number of F-35B aircraft (5 or 6 based on historical experience) for a few weeks a few times a year – either for training purposes or for major exercises. However the Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, referred in a speech on 1 November 2012 to 12 F-35B’s being routinely embarked, and he thought that there was “a realistic possibility of both carriers coming into service”, rather than one being sold or going in to extended reserve as SDSR proposed. Operating both carriers will cost an extra £70 million per year (mostly on additional personnel), and it is vital that the RN makes a convincing case in SDSR 2015 as to why these very large and expensive ships are still needed – a case extending far beyond their original ‘carrier strike’ raison d'être.

It was hoped that 2012 would finally see the first operational deployment of the new nuclear attack submarine HMS Astute, however she continued to be dogged by bad news. The tragic shooting and killing on the submarine in 2011 of Lieutenant Commander Molyneux by Able Seaman Donovan continued to make news, with the police publicly also expressing concern at the level of alcohol abuse and binge drinking by the crew of the submarine. The press also reported that the submarine still had serious engineering defects, was suffering badly from corrosion (some components of the submarine are already 15 years old!), and that her advanced optronic periscopes were not liked by the crew. 2012 should also have seen the second of class, HMS Ambush, complete sea trails and commission, but she ended the year still at her builders yard (BAE Systems Maritime – Submarines, Barrow-in-Furness) for further defect rectification work.


In 2012, the basic design of the Type 26 frigate was finally decided - after more than a decade of debate.
Two very positive developments in 2012 related to the Type 26 Global Combat Ship (GCS), and the MARS Fleet Tanker. The former project passed a key approval stage (Main Gate 1) in April 2012 and detailed design work began. The first of up 13 units could be ordered as early as 2014, entering service in 2021. Also, on 22 February 2012 the MoD placed an order worth £452 million with Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (DSME) of South Korea for four new Tide class fleet tankers.

Some other major developments and news items during 2012 include:

17 January: The MoD announced that it would make 300 redundancies in the Naval Service in 2012
20 April: The fourth Type 45 destroyer, HMS Dragon, commissioned
19 July: The MOD received its first F35B Joint Strike Fighter (designated BK-1, s/n ZM135), called the Lightning II in UK service
14 July: The submarine HMS Turbulent was decommissioned, leaving just five T-boats in active service – including one (HMS Torbay) undergoing a major refit
3 September: First sea trials of the upgrade Merlin HM2 helicopter
9 September: The former aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal was sold to a Turkish scrapyard for £3 million
13 September: It was announced that the MoD had purchased the three River class OPV’s from BAE Systems for £39 million
27 September: the Type 42 destroyer, HMS York, decommissioned. Only one Type 42 (HMS Edinburgh) remains in service
29 October: The MoD announced an additional £350 million of funding for the design of the ‘Successor’ ballistic missile submarine
10 December: The MOD awarded BAE a £1.2 billion contract to complete the fourth Astute class submarine, HMS Audacious. The MOD also confirmed £1.5 billion of funding towards the construction of the remaining three units of the class - Anson, Agamemnon and Ajax.
As indicated above, the Successor programme (replacing the four Vanguard class Trident missile nuclear deterrent submarines) is gathering a serious head of steam - spending will soon reach £1 billion per year. Decisions announced or leaked in 2012 include the development of a new PWR3 reactor for the submarines, and the adoption of an 8- rather than 12-missile compartment. It also seems that the orders long-lead items for the first of class submarine (expected to enter service in 2025) are already being placed.

Over the ten budget years 2012-13 to 2021-22, the MoD expects to spend £35.8 billion pounds of its equipment budget on Astute and the Successor submarines, but only £17.4 billion pounds on surface ships (carriers, destroyers, Type 26 frigates, etc.). The actual cost of renewing the UK’s nuclear deterrent is being deliberately obscured, but it certainly amounts to more than the entire capital expenditure on the rest of RN.

2013 looks set to be a 'holding' year for the Royal Navy, but hopefully none of the nasty surprises that have dogged these reviews for the last decade will emerge yet again.

Navy Matters | Home Page
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
As interesting as Beedall is, was there a particular reason why you merely copy and pasted his review and then made no contribution yourself? Could've at least taken picture captions out.

Please put a bit of effort in mate, extrapolate on some points at least.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Actually, isn't copying and pasting articles into threads with no further comment actually against the rules ?

Just sayin'...
 
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