The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Milne Bay

Active Member
Even with "only" 48 aircraft (assuming more aren't ordered) any contingency operation would surely see more aircraft flown out to the carrier?

I can imagine that up to 24 aircraft "could" be deployed without overly stretching such a fleet for a short term contingency, particularly given your entire air defence capability for your nation isn't provided by this fleet.

24 F-35B's, 2-3 AEW Sea Kings, 2-3 ASW/ASuW helicopters, 4-6 Apaches and 4-6 utility helicopters would appear to be a likely deployment capability and a very useful addition to any taskforce.
One thought that has been buzzing around in my mind since this was first broached is the capability of ship's personnel to cope with increased operational tempo and additions to the usual numbers of F-35's. Additional aircraft means additional sorties, additional pressure on maintainers, armourers, re-fuellers, handlers, flight controllers etc. If they haven't trained for that kind of intensity, then things can come unstuck fairly quickly.
Your thoughts will be appreciated on this aspect.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
One thought that has been buzzing around in my mind since this was first broached is the capability of ship's personnel to cope with increased operational tempo and additions to the usual numbers of F-35's. Additional aircraft means additional sorties, additional pressure on maintainers, armourers, re-fuellers, handlers, flight controllers etc. If they haven't trained for that kind of intensity, then things can come unstuck fairly quickly.
Your thoughts will be appreciated on this aspect.
Historically it's been done before in the Falklands when a flight of RAF GR3's staged down to the task force to take one of the carriers to overload capacity.

I'd guess with a CVF, what'd happen is you could surge the aircraft down very rapidly, operate at a higher rate for a *bit* - days, weeks, depending on how much of a drag is being imposed, while additional people were sent on by the most appropriate method if need be.

As to 12 aircraft, that's enough to beat the snot out of most of the 2nd and 3rd world countries without trying too hard and could be a handful for some of the more powerful and prosperous nations in any event. In an exercise in 1972, Ark ran what an US observer describe as a "reign of terror" for several days in a full WWIII scenario, "destroying" dozens of aircraft - and that was with a an air group of about 19 Buccs and F4K's. 12 embarked normally, probably nearer 24 in anything resembling a shooting match. All good from my perspective compared to 7 Gr9's (or less!)
 

Resolute

New Member
From another site, Q&A with BAE about Type 26 - many of your previous questions answered about the model presented earlier in the year.
Thanks Stobie for the link.I read it and understood as much as I could.My only question is since the Type 26 is going to be around for some time does the design include some provision for directed energy weapons like lasers or railguns in the future.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks Stobie for the link.I read it and understood as much as I could.My only question is since the Type 26 is going to be around for some time does the design include some provision for directed energy weapons like lasers or railguns in the future.

You might see some sort of DEW for close in defence during its life, but there's no way there'd be enough excess power to run a rail gun in the current design.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Fixed that for you.
Has it been confirmed that Merlin will take over in the AEW role from the ASaC7 Sea Kings?

That seems the logical solution as it appears unlikely that Hawkeye or any other fixed wing AEW could be afforded by the RN.
 

kev 99

Member
Has it been confirmed that Merlin will take over in the AEW role from the ASaC7 Sea Kings?

That seems the logical solution as it appears unlikely that Hawkeye or any other fixed wing AEW could be afforded by the RN.
No it hasn't, but deep down most commentators/enthusiasts know it.
 

rnrp

New Member
Has it been confirmed that Merlin will take over in the AEW role from the ASaC7 Sea Kings?

That seems the logical solution as it appears unlikely that Hawkeye or any other fixed wing AEW could be afforded by the RN.
I have a letter from Phil the accountant dated 29 sept 2012, regarding ASAC7.

He states "Crowsnest is a core funded project, but the project has no reached its main investment point yet"
He goes on to say "no definite in service date yet and were there to be a gap, ships would be able to use their own surveillance and control equipment"

I however disagree with this as I know that all radars have a horizon even Sampson, even to utilise wave bending techniques you can't break physics so ultimately the radar horizon is still there! This was spar ant in the post report on the loss of HMS Sheffield.

he states " 30 of the 38 Merlins Mk1 to be upgraded to Mk2, mk1 obsolescence means they are unsuitable to take Crowsnest.

He states in his final paragraph that "rnrp expresses concern that a Merlins Mk2 fleet that is required to cover both Airborne Surveillance and Anti Submarinne Warfare roles. The concept behind Crowsnest is that a bolt on role fit this will provide an inherent flexibility that allows either role to be filled, dependant on the Cmdrs requirements"

No I'm no genius, but 30 airframes to cover 2 Asw sqns, 1 sqns for small ship flights and another for ocu, add to the mix no MPA and sanitation of the Clyde for Casd then we have a severe shortage of capacity. Taking onnoard that it takes 3 airframes to endure 24 hour coverage over the task group, hence why we embark. 3 airframes in the first place.

More cuts:(
 

rnrp

New Member
I have a letter from Phil the accountant dated 29 sept 2012, regarding ASAC7.

He states "Crowsnest is a core funded project, but the project has no reached its main investment point yet"
He goes on to say "no definite in service date yet and were there to be a gap, ships would be able to use their own surveillance and control equipment"

I however disagree with this as I know that all radars have a horizon even Sampson, even to utilise wave bending techniques you can't break physics so ultimately the radar horizon is still there! This was spar ant in the post report on the loss of HMS Sheffield.



he states " 30 of the 38 Merlins Mk1 to be upgraded to Mk2, mk1 obsolescence means they are unsuitable to take Crowsnest.

He states in his final paragraph that "rnrp expresses concern that a Merlins Mk2 fleet that is required to cover both Airborne Surveillance and Anti Submarinne Warfare roles. The concept behind Crowsnest is that a bolt on role fit this will provide an inherent flexibility that allows either role to be filled, dependant on the Cmdrs requirements"

No I'm no genius, but 30 airframes to cover 2 Asw sqns, 1 sqns for small ship flights and another for ocu, add to the mix no MPA and sanitation of the Clyde for Casd then we have a severe shortage of capacity. Taking onnoard that it takes 3 airframes to endure 24 hour coverage over the task group, hence why we embark. 3 airframes in the first place.

More cuts:(
Just to add I am unable to load the letter up to the site as proof but am more than happy to send it out to anyone that wants a copy.
Sorry but my command system is just to old and isn't in the modern age!
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just to add I am unable to load the letter up to the site as proof but am more than happy to send it out to anyone that wants a copy.
Sorry but my command system is just to old and isn't in the modern age!
No dramas, thanks for the info. Given the Searchwater radar probably need replacement as well as the airframe, is there a chance that a podded system such as Lockheed Martin's Vigilance pod could be obtained, thus possibly opening up the opportunity to put such a system onto Wildcat helos as well?
 

rnrp

New Member
No dramas, thanks for the info. Given the Searchwater radar probably need replacement as well as the airframe, is there a chance that a podded system such as Lockheed Martin's Vigilance pod could be obtained, thus possibly opening up the opportunity to put such a system onto Wildcat helos as well?
Believe both LM vigilance and Thales with cerebus are still being looked at, Thales system now using a bolt on option too, so suppose that would be a cheaper option using current kit
 

swerve

Super Moderator
No dramas, thanks for the info. Given the Searchwater radar probably need replacement as well as the airframe, is there a chance that a podded system such as Lockheed Martin's Vigilance pod could be obtained, thus possibly opening up the opportunity to put such a system onto Wildcat helos as well?
The first of the radars was delivered just under 11 years ago, & last less than 9 years ago. They're a lot newer than the airframes. All the associated electronics & software were replaced at the same time as the radars.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The first of the radars was delivered just under 11 years ago, & last less than 9 years ago. They're a lot newer than the airframes. All the associated electronics & software were replaced at the same time as the radars.
Fair enough. Sounds like migrating the existing Searchwater 2000 radar into a podded solution might be a feasible option?

May open up it's potential use on other helicopters, UAV's or fixed wing solutions (some sort of interim MPA capability - King Air 350 or similar perhaps) too.

Interesting possibilities exist there regardless of how it pans out...
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
There was talk of Cerberus (the radar and consoles) being palletised and treated as a roll on/roll off affair for Merlin as a cheap and cheerful possibility. Vigilance would probably have more reach but also get deeper into our pockets. They need to step on it to get something ready for the QE however.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some really interesting rumours from Indonesia

Indonesia to buy frigates from Britain | Business Standard

Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro conveyed Indonesia's intention to purchase the ships during his meeting with his British counterpart Philip Hammond, Xinhua reported.

"The agreement on the purchase of those ships was conducted on transfer-of-technology basis so as to enable Indonesia in producing that kind of ships in the future," Purnomo said.

An Indonesian team would be sent to Britain to examine the ship's specifications.

Defence Deputy Minister Sjafrie Sjamsoeddin said the meeting also discussed the issue of joint military exercises.

He said the frigates would not take a significant portion of the 81 trillion rupiah ($8.4 billion) from the budget allotted to finance procurement of military equipment this year.

Indonesia has already sealed contracts with the British defence industry on supply of parts for Hawk jets and Scorpion battle tanks [Hmmmmm . . .. ]
Chances are this is for 3 of the T22s, I seem to recall there being the wish to see one scrapped in the UK to see how well UK based companies could handle it. Probably checking if the way is clear for some of the T23s, if they end up getting scrapped rather than sold which seems more likely.

Probably wouldn't be the T26 as why would Indonesia send a team of engineers over? It's a paper design rather than a physical ship so it seems a bit unnecesary IMO
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Curious.

Ordinarily I'd have said "T22" and shrugged - we've got four sitting around, all good stuff, off they go and their local yards do the rework to get them into fighting trim.

However "The agreement on the purchase of those ships was conducted on transfer-of-technology basis so as to enable Indonesia in producing that kind of ships in the future," Purnomo said."


The GCS team has space for customer input and there's a slender chance that they mean to work with BAE to design and perhaps build a lead ship, then go local for the remainder.

Sketchy but I do wonder....
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was just thinking about that phrase, it seems a bit odd that the Indonesians would be interested in ToT from such an old ship and then use that to build ships like them in the future when the oppertunity to be involved in the T26 exists?

Strange, i'm not getting too hyped up about it until I see it reported elsewhere.

Would be nice to think that the T26 has bagged an export customer, Hammond is in Australia trying to promote her I think.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Mind, the same article refers to Scorpion battle tanks <ROFL>

Scorpion went out of service twenty years or more ago over fume extractor issues, Scimitar is still in service but it ain't an MBT :)
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Interestingly, they've just spent a packet refurbing some old Leanders in 2010 and ordered a Dutch Frigate earlier this year (mind, it's nearer what we'd call a Corvette in size)

Hrrmm...
 
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