The Indonesian Army

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
From the link in my post (558), sems that's what the plan for BMP-3. The minister in the link stated the plan is to have considerable ToT for weapon and system development with Pindad. Further procurement of BMP-3 seems link to that agreement.
I've heard nothing on it in Russian media, even though the plant in question is fairly desperate for additional orders, given that the armed forces are not buying new BMP-3s right now. And the buys right now are in small batches. Even the total fleet size isn't that big.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
It stems from the 1998 US Embargo on the country.
The PT-76s and BTR-50s are a legacy of Suharto's flirtation with the Soviet Union in the 1960's. The Indonesians were unable to keep their Soviet supplied aircraft and naval assets running after the break in relations but unsurprisingly found it easier to keep the AFVs operational. With Indonesians/U.S. relations improving however and with a rising China overshadowing the region, perhaps the Indonesians will be more inclined to make further big ticket defence purchaces from Uncle Sam.

LVT-7 is another factor in here. It's popular and preferable for the Marines (which shown on the frequency of usage in the operational and exercise assignment).
My main problem with it is that its big :]. Personally I would prefer a smaller and more agile platform.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
@Feanor, I would not be surprised you have not heard anything yet on Russian media, since from what I read this more on intentions and plan from Indonesian Mindef. As I've mentioned on my previous post, until they ink the deal or intentions in the contract, anything can change. Afterall this administration life is only few months ahead, and based on projection, the next administration can come from different camp. However, the intentions and plan is there for more BMP-3's, including local ToT with Pindad. It reflected that if deal can be reached (under next Administration more likely), then substantial procurement for BMP-3's as PT-76 or perhaps even AMX-10 replacement is not far fetched from possibility. Then again, it is Indonesia, and until the contract signed, anything can change.

@Sturm, yes LVT-7 is big. That's why I sensed it they need wheeled based IFV in the class of BTR-4 or (if Pindad able to developed it further) in the form of Anoa Amphibious IFV. However LVT-7 is the ideal vehicle for large Amphibious operation, which is why the Marines used them extensively on Amphibious landing exercise they have done.

If I can speculated based on what the Navy or Mindef statement for Marines future operation, they seems in the end want to build inventory on tracked vehicles of BMP-3 and LVT-7 and wheeled ones either BTR-4 or Anoa Amphibious in the way influence by USMC operating Stryker.

That's only my speculation anyway :D
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The USMC doesn't operate the Stryker. The US Army does. The USMC operates the LAV-25, a similar but different vehicle.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The USMC doesn't operate the Stryker. The US Army does. The USMC operates the LAV-25, a similar but different vehicle.
Ha, ha, my mistake. I got mixed up between those two, should not hapen if paying attention more, it's different vehicle Afterall.
Still by using BTR-80 and now BTR-4 mixed with their existing tracked vehicles, Indonesian Marines seems trying to mimic the operational concept.
 

madokafc

Member
Correct me if i am wrong, LVT-7 so far can only be launched in open seas by the LPD fleet of Banjarmasin/Makassar class Indonesian had. As i mentioned before, the Marines seem interesting enough to add the number of their LVT-7 fleet but they doesn't have any more budget to be spared. And with the recent additional number amphibious vehicle, the marines seem not in hurry to do so.

But otherwise the Marines corps seem in desperate enough to procure more artillery and MLRS system to replace or supplement their antiquated inventory of 122 mm Sovyet guns and RM-70 Grad from Cheko. This will be in line for the recent plan to add more manpower (infantry battalion of Marine Corps) to forming the third Pasmar (or Marine Brigade units equivalent ).
 

madokafc

Member
Don't forgot AMX-10. According to Inventory data that I gather so far, it could be the most numerous armoured vehicle. The number of Marine inventory :
AMX-10 : 50 -80
PT-76 : 50 -70
BTR-50 : 50-60
BTR-3F: 54 (with the latest procurement),
BMP-2/BVP-2 : 30-40
BTR-80 : 10-15
LVT-7 : 10
BTR-4 : 5
PTS-M : 5-10

The above numbers I gather from various sources, so if other members got more precise number please fell free to correct it.
From those number, the inventory that officialy going to be put out are PT-76 and BTR-50. Seems BMP-3F going to replace PT-76, but for me what is not final yet is what going to be the final replacement for BTR-50.

If looking from old printed media in the 80's and 90's, it was mentioned that originally there were more than 100 PT-76 and around 150-200 BTR-50 procured by Indonesia for the Marines in the 60's from USSR. With current inventory of BTR-50 only left to 50-60, indicated along the time, AMX-10 and BMP/VP-2 already replacing some BTR-50.

The lattest oficial statement indicating that BTR-4 will be procured to replaced either PT-76 or BTR-50 (depends on articles). However with Ukroboron so far confirming only 5 order, for me indicating no firm program yet for BTR-4.

What madokafc mentioned of the Marines not really comfortable with BTR-80 access arrangement, already circulated for some time on local forum. For me, by only procured that small number of BTR-80, show that the Marines only evaluating BTR-80. But then again those BTR-80 already being send to International assignment under UN flag by Indonesian contingent.

It could be the Marines find some strong factor of BTR-80 but did not like the access arrangement, which come to BTR-4 that share several BTR-80 qualities but with more preferable (for the Marines) access arrangement. They perhaps need amphibious wheeled IFV, which perhaps explain why not all BTR-3F fleet for replacing BTR-50.

LVT-7 is another factor in here. It's popular and preferable for the Marines (which shown on the frequency of usage in the operational and exercise assignment). According to official statement in 2012, there should be 35 LVT-7 ex ROK Marines will be given to Indonesian Marines. So far only 10, which other 25 officialy still waiting US agreement for transferring to Indonesia. However I more suspected it is tied up to further deal with Samsung Techwin on more LVT-7 procurement. Thus LVT-7 as I mentioned before can be turn out to be more numerous than other vehicle save BMP-3F especially if Indonesian mindef or Pindad can get agreeable arrangement with Samsung Techwin.

Then for AMX-10, it's officialy will be upgraded, but no secret that the Marines did not fondly accepting AMX-10 to begin with in the 90's. It's still relative young age for Indonesian Marines standard, however I got suspicion that it will be replaced soon, if they can get enough budget for something else.

Overall, the Marines seems have plan to standardize their vehicle to 3-4 types, but which one will be, that's the questions.
actually, the number of BTR 50 in working conditions is more than that, i can't tell you how much but more than that number for real.

But for the BVP-2, actually only less of that number still in working conditions (around 18 units only will be a fair guess). And the marines actually doesn't like too much of their BVP-2, because the BVP had placing their additional fuel tank in their ramp door and that's quite dangerously while you are in hostile conditions. Because of that reasons Indonesian Marines never intended to adding more number of their BMP-2/BVP-2 fleet.

And for the Pindad project to accommodated the Marines need of 8X8 amphibious capable APC/IFV, you must taking Terrex into the account.
 

madokafc

Member
02.03.2014 9:43
OVERSEAS SERVICE FOR BTR-4

Indonesia planned to increase the capacity of their Marines through the purchase of a new Ukrainian and Russian armored vehicles . To equip the Marine Corps Navy Indonesia will purchase from Ukraine party BTR- 4 , and from Russia has delivered infantry fighting vehicles BMP-3F .


The first contract for the supply of five games Ukrainian BTR-4 will be signed in the near future , during the first quarter of this year - say the State Concern " Ukroboronprom ." Will perform his Ukrainian plants under the auspices of the state self-financing foreign trade enterprise " Spetstehnoeksport " Members of the GC " Ukroboronprom ." In turn, the Minister of Defense Purnomo Yusgiantoro of Indonesia said that just to be procured 55 Ukrainian BTR-4 . " Four" should replace the Soviet BTR- 50P, which is now in the arsenal of the Indonesian Marines more than 70 pieces. Armored personnel carrier BTR - amphibian -50P was based on a floating tank PT -76 and was made in the USSR in 1966 BTR -50P with two crew members can carry up to 20 people and is designed for airborne crossing water obstacles. But an impressive capacity for BTR -50P armored paying weak and limited fire capabilities .

In turn, the BTR-4 - a machine that is different and impressive armored protection , and fire potential. " Quartet " was developed enterprise « Kharkiv Machine Building Design Bureau them . Morozova " in 2007 Malyshev and manufacturing plants . The layout is different from armored vehicles previously created and mass-produced Soviet APC ( BTR-60/70/80 ) and the Russian BTR- 90 . In BTR-4 branch management taken in front of the body , the force from the engine compartment - the central part of the APC on the left side behind the driver , and provided with a passage on the starboard side , the troop compartment is at the rear . In 2012 this new wheeled armored version of BTR- 4E was adopted by the Ukrainian army. Crew of an armored personnel carrier - 3 people ( commander, driver , gunner ) . Marines - 8 people. On the BTR-4 can be fitted with various types of universal combat modules remotely operated weapon designed for light AFVs . The highlight of the Ukrainian combat units is the use of managed antitank weapons with a range missile launch up to 5 km . Weapon module manages gunner whose jobs - landing in office . The layout of the BTR- 4 allows to transform fighting and troop compartments without changing the layout solutions for the power plant and transmission for a wide family of machines - linear APC commander , sanitation , repair and recovery vehicle .

First the interest of Indonesia to the Ukrainian amphibious armored wheel formula 8x8 was announced in late 2012 Then after a meeting with Ukrainian arms exporters Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro of Indonesia stated that Ukraine and Indonesia are going to sign an intergovernmental agreement on cooperation in the defense sector. And soon visited Ukraine Defense Ministry official delegation of Indonesia to examine the capacity of Ukrainian military-industrial complex - including , and production of new armored vehicles . By that time, Ukraine has already been executed in 2009, signed a contract with Iraq for the supply of 420 armored personnel carriers BTR -4 and machines based on it . This contract was a serious challenge to the Ukrainian defense industry. Since 2009 most of the technological chain for serial production of the BTR- 4 in Ukraine was not simple. Supply of three years a large number of new APCs required considerable consolidation of the defense industry. That did not happen . By 2012 , as previously planned , the contract was not fulfilled - due to a number of organizational, financial and technical reasons . Its implementation is still going on .

In turn , the expected signing of a full contract with Indonesia gives you all the features of the Ukrainian " hone " technology to produce armored vehicles and demonstrate to both customers and market a real advantage in the new design. In what kind of configuration and in what " form " will buy BTR-4 Indonesia - is not yet known . When averaged price indices for 55 cars Ukraine may receive income in the range of $ 60 to $ 80 million replacement for the BTR -50P APC -4 Indonesian side plans to hold period 2015-2019 gg. But perhaps delivery Ukrainian BTR will be more concise.

Until 2019 Jakarta also plans to significantly increase the arsenal purchased from Russian BMP-3F . Marines fighting vehicle BMP-3F developed based on the BMP- 3 and is designed to improve mobility , armament , protection marine units . The design of the BMP-3F compared with BMP-3 is amended to increase the buoyancy and stability of the machine. Afloat machine can move at a level of excitement in 3 points and is shooting with the required accuracy at the level of excitement to 2 points . These parameters are , incidentally, comparable with " floating " BTR-4 capabilities .

First 17 ​​BMP-3F on the contract in 2007 worth $ 40 million were delivered to Indonesia in 2010 Payment of the contract has been funded by a loan of $ 1 billion granted to Indonesia Russia to pay for deliveries of Russian military products . In 2012 Indonesia and the Ministry of Defence "Rosoboronexport" signed a second contract for the supply of 37 Russian BMP-3F in the amount of $ 114 million was also signed a technology transfer agreement , which allows to establish repair BMP-3F and their weapons at the facilities of the Indonesian state military-industrial association PT. Pindad. Manufacture of machinery at JSC " Kurgan Engineering Works" , which also trained Indonesian military marines. Produced were transferred to the Ministry of Defense BMP Indonesia in January 2014 At the ceremony of receiving the Minister of Defence of Indonesia said that all Marines country plans to have 95 cars of family BMP-3F - 81 BMP-3F linear ten commanding BMP- 3FK and four ARV - A . That, in fact , may be regarded as the announcement of another contract for the purchase of Russian BMP .

Indonesian marines now has two operational groups divisional structure ( brigade of marines with reinforcements ) and third marine brigade . New equipment export production will come to the arsenal of all three teams - as a replacement for the BTR -50P and light amphibious tanks of Soviet-made PT-76 , proven in Indonesian conditions. But part of the PT-76 will remain in the ranks. Especially those who have undergone modernization - with the installation of new engines , transmission towers and the Belgian company CMI (Cockerill Maintenance & Ingénierie) with 90 - mm cannon.

In 2013 it became known that the leading Ukrainian developer of precision anti-tank missiles - State Kyiv Design Bureau "Luch" CMI and the company implemented a very interesting joint project . Its essence is that the ammunition 90mm gun turret Cockerill , a new ammo - Ukrainian shot antitank guided missile Falarick 90 . The missile can be fired through the bore 90 -mm cannon and hit armored targets at a distance of up to 4 km , which is more than twice as far , compared to other standard shells boeukladki . Substantial increase in firepower with the PT-76 bashey Cockerill can be very interesting proposal for further modernization of the Indonesian amphibious tanks . And this is another one - but not the only - opportunity for Ukraine to expand its military presence in the Indonesian market , which every year becomes more and more capacious . And so - and more attractive ...

Volodymyr Tkach , Defense Express
the followed link and the real article is written in Russian,

Defense Express News - ÇÀÌÎÐÑÊÀß ÑËÓÆÁÀ ÄËß ÁÒÐ-4


And as i am suspected before, those 5 BTR-4 in first request just as a test vehicle to see if they are fit or not to be inducted in Indonesian Marine fleet of amphibious vehicle. And they had taken the quality issue raised by the Indonesian side very carefully and seriously, they will do their best to secure the follow on more order contract if they can satisfied the Indonesian need.

And for the BMP-3F fleet, Indonesia Marine Corps wanna to make 2 battalion full strength to made up by this vehicle. And the rest of Marine infantry battalions fire power will be supplement by the older PT-76 (90) fleet. In this article, one of the interesting news is, they wanna marketed Falarick 90 AT guided munition for the Indonesian PT-76 who has been upgraded with CMI 90 mm Cockerill gun. Maybe if the marines interested in such proposal that will be prolong the usage of PT-76 fleet in Indonesian marines list of equipment.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
"is designed for airborne crossing water obstacles"

Huh? Hover-tanks?

I have to wonder about how effective a 90mm ATGM really is. There were concerns in Russia over the effectiveness of the 100mm ATGMs used by BMP-3s. And of course it would make little sense to keep the PT-76 in service with a minor incremental upgrade.

Also, the BTR-4 is insanely expensive. And Indonesia has financial difficulties in general. How do they plan to pay for it?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
How far the PT-76 can be upgraded further ? I believe like AMX-13 within the Army inventory, PT-76 already reached the limit of what can be upgraded. The Army it self seems so much less interest for AMX-13 upgraded program with Pindad, especiallysince they already got green light for MBT.

Already heard some 'rumours' talked, on possible used for recycle Cockeril 90mm gun from PT-76 for by Pindad on gunned wheeled IFV similar with Doosan Tarantula.

As for the affordability, considered current economic condition ? Well, currently within financial market all BRICS members except China and Russia plus Indonesia and Turkey considered as the 'Fragile Five'. The 5 biggest among emerging market (China can not be considered emerging market anymore), but also with the biggest volatile risk on the Economic side. However all those 'fragile five' still planned for considerable defense expenditures.

For Indonesia it self, at this moment defense procurement already plan based on multiple years procurement budget. In sense any procurement will be conducted with multiple years installment bases. This is why one products can be procured on small batch annually with several years time frame.

This make procurement more affordable. However the downsize is, that this method is not effective for operational budget. Thus even if one product can be procured, but if proved expensive to operated, then the number of procurement has to be reduced thus left some budget from procurement able to be switched to operational. This one of the reasons on small batches of flankers procurement, due money has to set asside for flankers operational budget, which turn to be the most expensive ones within Indonesian AF inventory.

I tend to see also that 5 BTR-4 procured to test their operational capabilities, but also their operational cost relative to others. The Marines will not committed for relative large amount of vehicles that proved not suitable for their need or they end up just like the AMX-10 situation.
 

bdique

Member
Also, the BTR-4 is insanely expensive. And Indonesia has financial difficulties in general. How do they plan to pay for it?
Considering that it is going to be swim-capable and frankly pretty well armed for an IFV, how does the BTR-4 compare to other amphib 8x8s? (Let's not talk about shoddy workmanship of the vehicles for now.) I'm only saying this so that I can have a better appreciation of what the TNI will be paying for, especially since it might be an expensive platform. (Tried to Google, had difficulty finding unit price though.)

Oh, and this isn't meant to be a this versus that. I just want to make that clear.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
DEFENCE MEDIA CENTER

From Indonesian Mindef website, in Bahasa. Basically Indonesian Pindad and Turkish FNSS signed partnership agreement for developing 'medium'sized tank. No detail information on this target medium tank will be. However from other media, and some info from Pindad sources indicated that the development is for new design (thus no existing FNSS design), and will be in the range of 30-35 ton weight.

Defense-studies blogspot put some picture, that could be the initial design.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Ananda, why the need for a medium tank? Granted, there will be instances where deploying Leopards won't make sense - probably due to terrain issues or the threat level - but then the TNI-AD already has Scorpions fitted with Cockerills.
 

madokafc

Member
Ananda, why the need for a medium tank? Granted, there will be instances where deploying Leopards won't make sense - probably due to terrain issues or the threat level - but then the TNI-AD already has Scorpions fitted with Cockerills.
But all Kodam wanted to build one or two cavalry regiment in their perspective territory, and the number of Scorpions or AMX 13 is not enough to equip all of our Kodam with one or two cavalry regiments
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Tulpar IFV - Infantry Fighting Vehicle - - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Tanks, Vehicles and Artillery

Ananda, why the need for a medium tank? Granted, there will be instances where deploying Leopards won't make sense - probably due to terrain issues or the threat level - but then the TNI-AD already has Scorpions fitted with Cockerills.
This medium tank design seems actualy is IFV design. Pindad have look for possibility on developing tracked IFV, with possible partners from South Korea, Germany and Turkey.

With acquisition of Marder, it's being talked on using Marder as based for Pindad tracked IFV, just like French/Renault FAB used as based design on Anoa. However despite some talked with Rheinmetall, seems now the development partners goes with Turkish FNSS.

Indonesian Army wants to developed more Mechenised Infantry, and more cavalry battalions. AMX-13 seems on the way out, and just like madokafc said not enough Scorpion Family in the inventory can be dispersed to all other Island (outside Java) need. Anoa being produced to eventually replaced all inventory of wheeled Armoured vehicles. However no program for tracked vehicle yet. Leopard + Marder is considered not as replacement on existing tracked vehicles (especially AMX-13), but more as new concept vehicle for TNI-AD.

In such that's where the development for 30-35 ton IFV came. It will be modular design that flexible for different guns mounting. Since FNSS is the partner, it can be their Tulpar IFV came as based design.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
I think it is also important to add, the Leopard and Marder are likely to remain organic to Kostrad ORBAT.

The medium tank if, I understand correctly, will likely find its way into the various Kodams.

Edit:

Btw, Ananda, your link and the design that was posted on defense-studies shows the Tulpar IFV and in particular, the proposed Tulpar tanksavar araci (medium tank). Unfortunately, this is a Otokar design. The MOU was signed with FNSS, not with Otokar and I doubt we will see this.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Edit:

Btw, Ananda, your link and the design that was posted on defense-studies shows the Tulpar IFV and in particular, the proposed Tulpar tanksavar araci (medium tank). Unfortunately, this is a Otokar design. The MOU was signed with FNSS, not with Otokar and I doubt we will see this.
Ahh..yes..my bad. Don't do enough back check. I forgot there's another manufacture of military vehicles in Turkey beside FNSS. Well, from what I gather so far, this medium tank will not be ACV-15 or it's subsequent version, which now stand as prime tracked vehicles from FNSS. This come as Pindad said in several occasion that they aimed for 30-35 ton range tracked vehicles, which larger than any current line up on FNSS ACV family.

I search again, and from their sites, can only found one design that up to 30 ton class. Still looking on that design, and what Pindad officially said so far on what they aim in this medium tank project, I have doubt if this is the design this medium tank will be based on. It's modullar design though.

Well seems have to wait and see where this development will be progress on ward.

ACV-30 Armored Combat Vehicles - FNSS Savunma Sistemleri A.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
http://www.defense.gov/Contracts/Contract.aspx?ContractID=5221

From US DoD site; Hellfire Systems LLC has been awarded contract of USD 157.36 mio for production of Hellfire II missile for FMS to Saudi, Jordan and Indonesia.

For Indonesia, seems related to previous deal for 8 Apache which include 32 Hellfire missile launcher and 140 missile. Don't know what is the final amount for Indonesian deal though.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
http://m.detik.com/news/read/2014/0...ni-lokasi-penempatan-tank-kelas-berat-leopard

From detik.com. official allotments for 103 Leo 2 procured by Indonesian Army. The bulk of them will be make 2 Tank battalions under Kostrad in Cijantung (Jakarta) and Pasuruan (East Java). Each batalion seems will be hybrid of upgrade Leo 2A4 and Leo 2 RI (Revolution) consists of 3 company (kompi) totaling 41. The rest wil be divided for training detachment.

This clearly confirmed that those Leo 2 will be put in Java, although putting them in Jakarta and Pasuruan (near Surabaya) indicating close proximity with Military Sea Lift command, thus theoretically enable them to be sea lifted soon to other island, in the need arrise.

On transporting them, the Navy locally newly build LST and Makasar clas LPD seems the choice. While the Cavalry Battalions outside Java will get Scorpion and AMX-13.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Usually, Kostrad will get the best kit and are based at Jakarta.

But could this be because Java has much better infrastructure or could it be for political reasons why none are deployed in Kalimantan? Practically speaking, no enemy is going to be landing on Java without going through the outer islands and the only major land border is up in Borneo.

Hopefully, they don't turn out to be 'parade' tanks.
 
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