Tank Biathlon

Feanor

Feanor

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It has little to do with Russian ground forces, and so I figured it might merit its own thread.

For those who don't know, the Tank Biathlon was started in 2013, with teams from Russia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, and Belarus. It was repeated in 2014 with more participants, although the only foreign tank present was the Chinese ZTZ-96 (the other teams participated on the T-72B provided by Russia). Russia won by a wide margin, with the Chinese performance being unimpressive. However, Russian crews used a special souped up T-72B3, with a new engine, new FCS, panoramic sights, and other upgrades. So they realistically had by far the most modern tank. This was likely done in preparation for western tanks that were originally supposed to participate (it was cancelled due to the war in Ukraine).

This year Russia is providing the T-72B3 to all participants. It remains a question whether the Russian team will compete on a regular T-72B3, or on the souped up "sports tanks" they used last year.

There's a couple photos of the color schemes for this year, and a photo of the Indians with the T-72B3. To be honest, this might also be a sales bid. A chance for the tankers of various countries to take an up close look at the modern T-72.

Gur Khan attacks!: "Танковый биатлон" - в Ñтот раз вÑе по-чеÑтному!

China is once again bringing the ZTZ-96A that did so poorly last year. Interestingly enough they're also participating in a whole bunch of other Russian competitions, including they very interesting Air Darts (ground-attack VS MANPADS), and Suvorov's Push for mech infantry (for which they've brought the ZDB-03 IFV which is a BMP-1 with a new turret).

bmpd - Танки и БМП ÐОÐК приехали на "Танковый биатлон" и "СуворовÑкий натиÑк"

It looks like the rules are being adjusted this year. The rules may allow for two first place contestants this year.

Минобороны: правила "Танкового биатлона" будут ÑущеÑтвенно доработаны | Ð*732;Ð ÐовоÑти

The rules booklet from last year is available here.

[ame=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b57_1391583359]LiveLeak.com - Tank Biathlon 2014 World Championship rules and invitation.[/ame]
 
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bdique

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How unimpressive was the ZTZ-96? I've tried to find reports of the ZTZ-96's performance but I couldn't find much (other than the typical chest-thumping reports).
 
Feanor

Feanor

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bdique said:
How unimpressive was the ZTZ-96? I've tried to find reports of the ZTZ-96's performance but I couldn't find much (other than the typical chest-thumping reports).
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They came in 3rd, losing to Russia and Armenia, who was using regular T-72Bs.

In the individual race they hit 2/3 shots, for all 3 crews. They didn't make good time either. Their 3 crews came in 17th , 20th and 27th.


In the short sprint they do two laps of 3 km each, and then fired 3 shots from the main gun on the second lap. They scored 8th, 12th, and 19th, but this time hit all 3 shots. However, they once again didn't make very good time. The three Russia crews got 3/3 on two, and 2/3 on one, but have such a decisive speed advantage (that souped up engine) that they easily beat all 3 Chinese crews. That having been said, quite a few crews beat the Chinese. Kazakhstan came in 2nd, 7th, and 25th, with the first two beating all Chinese crews. Serbia and Kirgiziya's highest scoring crews also beat all the Chinese.

China made excellent results in the sports section, where their crews were by far the most physically fit. This is likely the only reason they even made it into the top 3.

The last section was the relay, and only the top 4 crews made it in. It was a time race where you do two laps of 4 kms, and firing on a "RPG crew" target at the first lap with the machinegun, and 3 shots at "Tank" type targets on the second lap. Missing earns a 500m penalty lap. The Chinese came in 3rd, beating Kazakhstan by less then 4 minutes (they got 90, Kazakhstan got 94). In their 3 crews, they got less total hits on Tank targets their either Russia or Armenia, though they did better on RPG crew targets. Once again, they made bad time.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Чемпионат_мира_по_танковому_биатлону_2014

It may be that the fault lies with crew driver training. Or it may be that Russia slanted events heavily to advantage mobility (a traditional strength of the T-72). And let's not forget that protection levels are not tested at all in the slightest. A big part of the tank. That having been said, the ZTZ-96A doesn't consistently outperform the T-72B mod 1985. So... :(
 
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bdique

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Feanor said:
They came in 3rd, losing to Russia and Armenia, who was using regular T-72Bs.

In the individual race they hit 2/3 shots, for all 3 crews. They didn't make good time either. Their 3 crews came in 17th , 20th and 27th.


In the short sprint they do two laps of 3 km each, and then fired 3 shots from the main gun on the second lap. They scored 8th, 12th, and 19th, but this time hit all 3 shots. However, they once again didn't make very good time. The three Russia crews got 3/3 on two, and 2/3 on one, but have such a decisive speed advantage (that souped up engine) that they easily beat all 3 Chinese crews. That having been said, quite a few crews beat the Chinese. Kazakhstan came in 2nd, 7th, and 25th, with the first two beating all Chinese crews. Serbia and Kirgiziya's highest scoring crews also beat all the Chinese.

China made excellent results in the sports section, where their crews were by far the most physically fit. This is likely the only reason they even made it into the top 3.

The last section was the relay, and only the top 4 crews made it in. It was a time race where you do two laps of 4 kms, and firing on a "RPG crew" target at the first lap with the machinegun, and 3 shots at "Tank" type targets on the second lap. Missing earns a 500m penalty lap. The Chinese came in 3rd, beating Kazakhstan by less then 4 minutes (they got 90, Kazakhstan got 94). In their 3 crews, they got less total hits on Tank targets their either Russia or Armenia, though they did better on RPG crew targets. Once again, they made bad time.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Чемпионат_мира_по_танковому_биатлону_2014

It may be that the fault lies with crew driver training. Or it may be that Russia slanted events heavily to advantage mobility (a traditional strength of the T-72). And let's not forget that protection levels are not tested at all in the slightest. A big part of the tank. That having been said, the ZTZ-96A doesn't consistently outperform the T-72B mod 1985. So... :(
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Feanor, thank you very much! I didn't know that the souped-up engines could make that much of a difference in timings. Or as you said, it could be that the drivers were not sufficiently trained.

I've read that the PLA's primary focus is not so much expeditionary missions (or least in a limited form), but more of internal control. I wonder if this could explain for the ZTZ-96's reduced manoeuvrability, since the Chinese design focus could be different from that of the T-72.
 
Feanor

Feanor

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bdique said:
Feanor, thank you very much! I didn't know that the souped-up engines could make that much of a difference in timings. Or as you said, it could be that the drivers were not sufficiently trained.

I've read that the PLA's primary focus is not so much expeditionary missions (or least in a limited form), but more of internal control. I wonder if this could explain for the ZTZ-96's reduced manoeuvrability, since the Chinese design focus could be different from that of the T-72.
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I honestly don't know.

As far as the engine goes, the regular T-72B mod 1985 has the V-84, an 840 horsepower engine. The T-72B3M has an upgraded, or new (unclear) engine with a stated 1130 horsepower. With about the same weight.

If I understand correctly, the ZTZ-96A has a 1000 horsepower engine, with a similar weight (to the T-72B).
 
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bdique

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Feanor said:
I honestly don't know.

As far as the engine goes, the regular T-72B mod 1985 has the V-84, an 840 horsepower engine. The T-72B3M has an upgraded, or new (unclear) engine with a stated 1130 horsepower. With about the same weight.

If I understand correctly, the ZTZ-96A has a 1000 horsepower engine, with a similar weight (to the T-72B).
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No worries, thank you very much for your replies! That question I asked was a long shot. I suspect there is more than just horsepower that made the difference. Probably had improved transmission/suspension, maybe even a supercharger? I don't know, but I just found a link to the final round of the tank biathlon on Youtube, gonna find an hour and a half of my time this evening to sit down and watch the whole thing :)
 
Feanor

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The tank biathlon has gotten started, and the contestants are having fun already. The Armenians stalled their tank driving through the water, and the Kuwaiti's managed to flip it on it's side. What's even more amazing, is that this is the second time they've done it. They did it once during practice. The first link has the video (fair warning, there's cursing in Russian), and the second has the photo of the first time they flipped a T-72B3 on its side during practice.

http://panzerbar.livejournal.com/2732704.html
Gur Khan attacks!: ÐÐ²Ð°Ñ€Ð¸Ñ Ð½Ð° тренировке "Танкового биатлона-2015"
 
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bdique

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SASWanabe said:
flip it on its side?!? looks to me like they rolled it and then it landed on its side
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Oh dear, the safety officer (is there such an assignment in the Russian forces?) will need something strong at the bar later...

But it looks like the tanks are driven hatch down, that's one ameliorating factor. Any idea how the Kuwaiti crew are?

Also, on a side note, I found another video of the same incident. It's a little longer, it features the PLA ZTZ-96 having some control issues cornering (nervous driver?), and being pretty conservative speed-wise during the fording segment.

https://youtu.be/t4dhYpPLcVM
 
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Goknub

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Damn, those Kuwaitis were driving that tank like Arab street drift racing. At least they weren't holding anything back but they look like they needed a lot more practice in dirt/mud.

The next biathlon should be in the Middle East, then you'd see some real racing. If only conflicts could be sorted with a drive off.
 
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bdique

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Goknub said:
Damn, those Kuwaitis were driving that tank like Arab street drift racing. At least they weren't holding anything back but they look like they needed a lot more practice in dirt/mud.

The next biathlon should be in the Middle East, then you'd see some real racing. If only conflicts could be sorted with a drive off.
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Is it me or does it look like these T-72s have no track pads on them?
 
Feanor

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defendrus

defendrus

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Tank Biathlon now is part of the Army Games

This year it's not just the Tank Biathlon that was held but also a number of other military competitions. Altogether they call it Army Games.
 
Rising Eagle

Rising Eagle

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Great analysis Feanor, even though the armor of the tanks is not tested the ZTZ 96 should have still out performed the T-72.

It would be interesting to see a competition where various countries bring out their best MBT's for a competition.
 
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CheeZe

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A couple things I've been wondering about are the crews. Are the crews all trained and experienced regulars in their respective armed forces? Or are they whoever the respective military authorities decide to send such as conscripts? It's one thing to compare the mechanical element in the competition but I can't find any literature on the human element of the competition. It would be highly erroneous to simply assume all the crews are equally skilled and experienced without any confirmation. After all, if Chinese conscript crews manage to come in 3rd against the Russian and Armenian regulars, that's a whole different kettle of fish to what Chinese regulars might be able to accomplish.

The second thing I'm wondering about, being ethnically Chinese, is whether the Chinese were even trying their hardest, good crews or not. It strikes me that one mechanism (which I've employed) is to do less than I can so people will think less of my knowledge and thus underrate me. Many of my friends have admitted to doing the same because it then lowers the expectation on them, relieves the pressure of doing well, and allows them to gauge who else is able to do the same level of work.

Given China's passive-aggressive stance on all things military, I cannot help but wonder if something of the sort is at play.

I do acknowledge that a simpler answer would be that Chinese tank doctrine is still defensive as opposed to aggressive. Power projection is the PLAN's role at the moment.
 
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Toblerone

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Well, the Chinese did super well in the fitness exercises according to Feanor, so I think they sweated hard and did their best in all other challenges too.
 
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CheeZe

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Toblerone said:
Well, the Chinese did super well in the fitness exercises according to Feanor, so I think they sweated hard and did their best in all other challenges too.
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Physical fitness isn't a sign of expertise in technical areas nor of time served. Maybe they tried their best in all regards, maybe they didn't. Can't really answer that since no one's gonna own up to it publicly.

But the matter of how experienced the various crew members participating from all countries is one that I am still very curious about. The human element, as in all competitions, can make up for or exacerbate the factors surrounding the equipment.
 
Feanor

Feanor

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Local competition among tank crews in Russia for the Tank Biathlon 2016 have begun. Take a look at the ones from Primor'ye. Note all the tanks this time around are T-72B3s. The B3 variant is rapidly taking over as the most common T-72 variant. Perhaps this year even foreign crews will be offered the B3 for their tank, if they don't bring their own.

Море огнÑ: ÑÑтафета Ñкипажей Т-72 на окружном Ñтапе "Танкового биатлона- 2016" - Smit_Smitty LJ
 
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