yutong chen
New Member
I thought you run something else
T-98 vs Arjun
- Thread starter dabrownguy
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elkaboingo
New Member
lets get back to the MLRS.
someone tell me about the new precision ones.
the old ones are about as accurate as normal arty, but can have better armor piercing qualities. they mainly rely on numbers more than accuracy which makes them fairly cheap.
does guided mean they can follow targets moving targets if they change course. when plotting the old MLRS you have to either have the splash zone somewhere along the expected route or hit them at a choke point.
thanks.
someone tell me about the new precision ones.
the old ones are about as accurate as normal arty, but can have better armor piercing qualities. they mainly rely on numbers more than accuracy which makes them fairly cheap.
does guided mean they can follow targets moving targets if they change course. when plotting the old MLRS you have to either have the splash zone somewhere along the expected route or hit them at a choke point.
thanks.
I'm not sure what the ATACMS CEP is. But the fact that they are used for grid kills means that they must be fairly accurate.
also - the warheads can be changed for tasking.
560 kg (1240 lb) (950 M74 APAM bomblets);
MGM-140B: 160 kg (353 lb) (275 M74 APAM bomblets);
MGM-140C (MGM-164A): 268 kg (592 lb) (13 BAT submunitions);
MGM-140E (MGM-168A): 227 kg (500 lb) WAU-23/B unitary high-explosive
either way, you wouldn't want to be underneath an attack. The Chally 2 has topdeck ERA, so has a better chance of pulling through - but not on a sustained MLRS strike.
also - the warheads can be changed for tasking.
560 kg (1240 lb) (950 M74 APAM bomblets);
MGM-140B: 160 kg (353 lb) (275 M74 APAM bomblets);
MGM-140C (MGM-164A): 268 kg (592 lb) (13 BAT submunitions);
MGM-140E (MGM-168A): 227 kg (500 lb) WAU-23/B unitary high-explosive
either way, you wouldn't want to be underneath an attack. The Chally 2 has topdeck ERA, so has a better chance of pulling through - but not on a sustained MLRS strike.
elkaboingo
New Member
darn, tech seems to have left me behind. lately, i havent had so much time to look at these new things. i'm still back in the mid-90's
yutong chen
New Member
If a country that can design a ICBM similar to USSR and USA, why don't you'll think that it can't design a MBT better than India.
yutong chen said:
yutong, was this a rhetorical question or were you asking anyone in particular??
gf0012 said:
My two cents: rhetoric :roll BTW guys I was having a discussion with my army aviation uncle a few days back and he told me that some exciting plans are afoot for Al-Khalid improvements.The things which he told me are different from the Turkish proposal which is related to the present version of the Al-Khalid.Since these plans are still on paper/in the proposal stage I would not be posting anything regarding them untill they have become firm and are backedup by some sources not just my word.
is there anything in the public domain about arnoured doctrine for Pakistan and/or India?
India appears to favour a cpmbination of russian armoured doctrine and british infantry doctrine. Pakistan seems to favour a british armoured and infantry style doctrine.
India appears to favour a cpmbination of russian armoured doctrine and british infantry doctrine. Pakistan seems to favour a british armoured and infantry style doctrine.
yutong chen
New Member
What makes Arjun so SPECIAL?
yutong chen said:
Nothing. Nobody here is saying the Arjun is a super magical appliance single-handedly repulsing several alien invasions while rescuing Africa, curing cancer and appearing on American Idol. Well, at least I'm not....We are dealing on equal terms here and discussing comparative capabilities on several subject topics. Note the thread title, yutong chen.
elkaboingo
New Member
to gf:
pak has two 'striker brigades' that as soon as pak is attacked they push into indian territory. we dont have enough land to be able to battle on it. we'd get divided in two. the two brigades are followed up by all the 2nd class things.
this is the general 'plan' or do you want something on a smaller company level?
from teh 60-70 pak and india had a screwed up doctrines. they involved everyone advancing in a line with tanks following closely. uffff what a bad plan.
anyways tanks WILL NOT be sent into battle without infantry. that would just be a massacre.
pak has two 'striker brigades' that as soon as pak is attacked they push into indian territory. we dont have enough land to be able to battle on it. we'd get divided in two. the two brigades are followed up by all the 2nd class things.
this is the general 'plan' or do you want something on a smaller company level?
from teh 60-70 pak and india had a screwed up doctrines. they involved everyone advancing in a line with tanks following closely. uffff what a bad plan.
anyways tanks WILL NOT be sent into battle without infantry. that would just be a massacre.
elkaboingo said:
Thanks matey. I was curious as to how their armoured units were defined.
eg what is in an armoured brigade, tanks, IFV. AFV, SP Howitzers, ADS systems etc... I am a little curious as to whether they mirror chinese, british, russian platform mix.
Couldn't locate much at all...
'- Pakistan shifts from the division structure to the brigade structure for ease of handling and to speed up the battle tempo. The division is now simply an HQ with signals capability, and can be inserted above 2-5 brigades to reduce the span of control as needed.
- Within the brigade, now a combined arms unit, logistic support is stripped from maneuver battalions and centralized in the brigade Logistic Support Battalion. This works for Pakistan because it abandons the traditional expeditionary force model, useful for indefinite duration operations overseas, to one that is optimized for short duration operations from home bases.
- Armor and mechanized brigades have a standard 2-1, 1-2, tank-mechanized mix with a mixed artillery regiment [32 guns/RL], and supporting units; infantry brigades have 3 infantry battalions and brigade base similar to the heavy brigades; equipment is lighter – for example, instead of battalion 120mm mortars there are 81mm mortars.
- The Cat B regiments have limited armor – a support battalion of 19 tanks [one squadron of 11 tanks plus APC platoon, one company of 8 tanks plus two APC platoons, one heavy anti-tank missile company. The brigade artillery battalion has 18 guns. Vehicular mobility is limited, and supporting units are smaller – the engineer squadron has 100 men versus 200 for a Cat A brigade.
- Tank regiments remain at 44 tanks; as in India’s case, they are now called battalions and most regiments have 2 battalions [thus: 1/5th Lancers, 2/5th Lancers]'
Orbat.com
I believe there is a section available detailing Pakistani Armoured brigades further, however it sits behind a subscription barrier...
I still doubt this will help much and it it is wrong, then correct it. :roll
View more on: The Pakistani Army tank inventory
'- Pakistan shifts from the division structure to the brigade structure for ease of handling and to speed up the battle tempo. The division is now simply an HQ with signals capability, and can be inserted above 2-5 brigades to reduce the span of control as needed.
- Within the brigade, now a combined arms unit, logistic support is stripped from maneuver battalions and centralized in the brigade Logistic Support Battalion. This works for Pakistan because it abandons the traditional expeditionary force model, useful for indefinite duration operations overseas, to one that is optimized for short duration operations from home bases.
- Armor and mechanized brigades have a standard 2-1, 1-2, tank-mechanized mix with a mixed artillery regiment [32 guns/RL], and supporting units; infantry brigades have 3 infantry battalions and brigade base similar to the heavy brigades; equipment is lighter – for example, instead of battalion 120mm mortars there are 81mm mortars.
- The Cat B regiments have limited armor – a support battalion of 19 tanks [one squadron of 11 tanks plus APC platoon, one company of 8 tanks plus two APC platoons, one heavy anti-tank missile company. The brigade artillery battalion has 18 guns. Vehicular mobility is limited, and supporting units are smaller – the engineer squadron has 100 men versus 200 for a Cat A brigade.
- Tank regiments remain at 44 tanks; as in India’s case, they are now called battalions and most regiments have 2 battalions [thus: 1/5th Lancers, 2/5th Lancers]'
Orbat.com
I believe there is a section available detailing Pakistani Armoured brigades further, however it sits behind a subscription barrier...
I still doubt this will help much and it it is wrong, then correct it. :roll
View more on: The Pakistani Army tank inventory
elkaboingo
New Member
the equipment really comes down to where you are. if your in the desert, youll get everything, MLRS, arty, ak's and t80ud, apc saad/talha, and infantry.
here they basically advance, when they get close the infantry dismount and the FIST tries to plan where to hit them with the arty. hopefully the enemy's track and the splash zone coincide. tanks engage at farther ranges while infantry get out of their apcs and try to get close. they hide behind the many bushes and fire rpg-7s and baktar shikan. CAS is flown by mirages, f6 (now replaced by f7pg) and i think a5 (not sure if we still use these) and cobra too. some battlefield snipers using g3a3 with custom scope or steyr aug. tons of anzas, stingers, and rbs70's used for aa.
if youre in the northern rivery area, things are limited. arty isnt so mobile so you have a set coverage. CAS can still be flown by the same planes and helos. lots of choke points so good to have arty and CAS. tanks are restricted to what can be moved over quickly assembled pontoon bridges and things like that. the jeep w/ 105mm recoilless rifle dominates. it can get over bridges quickly and can fire HE and armor piercing. apcs are used to some extent but insertion by helo is more common. now infantry alone are used more though. weapons like baktar shikan and rpgs are good for ambushes and things. anti material sniper rifles against enemy jeeps. also mortars are good support weapon along with mg3 machine gun. same manpads are used.
a little higher up, the same equipment as the river area is used except not as many jeeps. this is the place where that famous pic of a howitzer on a donkey takes place. yes (*sigh*) they use donkeys to carry howitzers and heavy mortars.
now for the really high mountain areas. no vehicles except CAPs planes, supply helos, and snowmobiles. here is where you see all those pak soldiers wearing the puffy white jackets. heavy reliance on the mg3 and its high rate of fire. there are 105mm howitzers and other arty at pretty much fixed locations, some as high as 18,000 feet.
here they basically advance, when they get close the infantry dismount and the FIST tries to plan where to hit them with the arty. hopefully the enemy's track and the splash zone coincide. tanks engage at farther ranges while infantry get out of their apcs and try to get close. they hide behind the many bushes and fire rpg-7s and baktar shikan. CAS is flown by mirages, f6 (now replaced by f7pg) and i think a5 (not sure if we still use these) and cobra too. some battlefield snipers using g3a3 with custom scope or steyr aug. tons of anzas, stingers, and rbs70's used for aa.
if youre in the northern rivery area, things are limited. arty isnt so mobile so you have a set coverage. CAS can still be flown by the same planes and helos. lots of choke points so good to have arty and CAS. tanks are restricted to what can be moved over quickly assembled pontoon bridges and things like that. the jeep w/ 105mm recoilless rifle dominates. it can get over bridges quickly and can fire HE and armor piercing. apcs are used to some extent but insertion by helo is more common. now infantry alone are used more though. weapons like baktar shikan and rpgs are good for ambushes and things. anti material sniper rifles against enemy jeeps. also mortars are good support weapon along with mg3 machine gun. same manpads are used.
a little higher up, the same equipment as the river area is used except not as many jeeps. this is the place where that famous pic of a howitzer on a donkey takes place. yes (*sigh*) they use donkeys to carry howitzers and heavy mortars.
now for the really high mountain areas. no vehicles except CAPs planes, supply helos, and snowmobiles. here is where you see all those pak soldiers wearing the puffy white jackets. heavy reliance on the mg3 and its high rate of fire. there are 105mm howitzers and other arty at pretty much fixed locations, some as high as 18,000 feet.
elkaboingo
New Member
hey i just noticed, gf your a mod :eek
:smokingc: :australia good job!
:smokingc: :australia good job!
yutong chen
New Member
Can Al-Khalid beat a Arjun?
elkaboingo said:
thanks! be gentle with me...
yutong chen said:
There's more to this than just comparing the specifications for the tanks, it gets down to issues of terrain, commanders discretion, armoured doctrine, crew training, logistics, maintenance, attrition, etc....
both tanks don't have any deployment history behind them, so its hard to determine factors such as the above, reliability, performance in a war zone (which is completely different to even the most rigorous of testing regimes)
Both tanks have been designed for usage in what is seen as the most likely engagement scenarios and yet both are very different in concept. That means that both design briefs have been determined by armoured doctrine that is dissimilar.
In short, its anyones guess. Look at the M1a1. It was originally designed as a tank to combat the Warsaw Pact in a European theatre, it has demonstrated that it has the clear capability to fight "kursk" type battles in desert conditions. - So it has demonstrated that the basic design was a very sound and flexible war fighting platform.
The T-98 and Arjun are also conceptually dissimilar to core western tank designs. Again that reinforces different war fighting doctrines.
gf0012 said:
One thing gf, remember that new Al-Khalid I talked about in this forum. My AA uncle gave me a "thumbnail" escription so as to speak.what I deciphered was that it is also going to be conceptually closer to western tanks.But since it's on paper one never knows :roll .
AS regards the inventory winter, thats kept highly hush hush.Whats on the web is merely speculation.We'll get to see all of it in case a war happens(hope not!)
PEACE!
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