T-72 T-55

[eckherl]

T-84 isn't a western tank. It's ukranian. While westernized variants exist, it doesn't look like a good candidate. It's an elite and very modern MBT. It would make the M-48's look like the old junk they are. Makes little sense to get a butload of old Cold War-era western tanks, and then a handful of modern Ukranian MBT's. As for the Al-Khalid, I don't know enough to comment. Why not give them some old M1's, like the M1A1 that Egypt, and initally Saudi, got? Don't forget Ukraine is also very politically unstable. Right now it's sort of pro-Western. The government, though not the people so much. Tomorrow it might turn into a Russian sattelite. And then you've paved the road for Russian influence on the Iraqi arms market.

Did not say that the T-84 is a western tank, that will come from the M-60A1 thru M60A3 procurement, they have also decided to take on M48A5s which can be upgraded making it still a fully capable tank, at least as effective as a M60A3. Getting Leos, M1 series or Leclercs would just be a logistical nightmare right now for Iraq, to high in maintenance and to expensive to maintain. Saudi nor Egypt will part ways with their M1A2s or M1A1 tanks, they have recently added additional tanks in that series. I do not want to turn this into a political debate as far as Ukrainian and Russian politics go, but I feel that Ukraine will never look to their eastern neighbor for any type of major security pact, they will eventually become part of NATO or recieve major influence by them, this could change though and that comment is pure speculation on my part. Still Ukrainian influence in Iraq especially in weapons procurement possibilities has been looking good. We will just have to see if you guy`s think that I am bonkers with this predictiment, I could be wrong.:unknown

 

[kato]

I'm also pretty sure Germany would have to ok any Leopard re-sale. *cough*

 

[eckherl]

I'm also pretty sure Germany would have to ok any Leopard re-sale. *cough*

Actually, the chances of either actual U.S inventoried M1 series or Leopard 2 series tanks being sold to Iraq would be slim to nil due to sensitive information in regards to both tanks, most likely the same issue with the Leclerc also.

 

[Waylander]

I think Kato thought more about older Leo 1s.
Compared to a M48A5 a Leopard 1A5 isn't that bad and could be an alternative IF Germany would approve the sale of them.
But as Kato already said it is quite unlikely that our government would approve such a deal.

 

[kato]

Not just 1A5. Germany has a veto option on sales of any Leopard 1/2, afaik.

There are a number of Leo 1 variants that could be viable for such a sale/donation in the next few years - e.g. Greek/ex-Dutch Leopard 1V, Canadian C2, Danish 1A5DK, Norwegian 1A5NO; stock sales could come from Germany (1A5) or Italy (1A1A2IT).

 

[DavidDCM]

Isn't it a voluntary guideline of the German leadership not to sell military hardware to nations with serious security concerns? I know that this guideline can be stretched pretty far, but selling/giving hundreds of MBT's to the most media-covered warzone in the world is something that no German politician would dare to do, I think.

 

[eckherl]

Do you guys think that Germany would actually stand in the way of any country wanting to off load older Leo 1 series tanks minus the Canadian C2 to Iraq.

 

[Waylander]

@Kato
I mentioned the A5s because they are what comes close to a M48A5 in terms of upgrades (And might very well exceed it) without having to list the whole bunch of other versions.
I am aware that there are alot of other relatively modern versions of the Leo 1 out there which have been phased out recently or are on their way out.

@Eckherl
I could very well think of our government blocking such a deal.
Iraq is a perfect example for a country in a crisis region and the whole conflict is seen very sceptical here in Germany. Good reasons for our government to block it.

 

[eckherl]

@Kato
I mentioned the A5s because they are what comes close to a M48A5 in terms of upgrades (And might very well exceed it) without having to list the whole bunch of other versions.
I am aware that there are alot of other relatively modern versions of the Leo 1 out there which have been phased out recently or are on their way out.

@Eckherl
I could very well think of our government blocking such a deal.
Iraq is a perfect example for a country in a crisis region and the whole conflict is seen very sceptical here in Germany. Good reasons for our government to block it.

Could be the very reason why Greece only offered up M60 and M48 series tanks. Something was in need post haste as to some of the reasoning why Iraq is getting our old relics. Does this same rule apply to IFVs also for example, something along of the lines of a Marder series.

 

[kato]

Yes. In particular since any Marder would have to be exported directly from Germany.

Actually, since 2000, there's a EU Council decision on this. Weapons of War may not be exported to countries if "there is a risk that the equipment can be used in internal repression", with deeper analysis if bought for "internal use" by a nation; additionally, no EU country may export weapons into a state, in which these weapons would "prolong" or "escalate" an armed conflict.
That's just the two points that might be applicable to Iraq; there're more points, e.g. with regard to "potential use against own or Allied troops", or "re-transfer to terrorist groups".

For Germany, "Weapons of War" are clearly defined by a list of 62 generalized items. Tanks are #24 on that list, AFVs including armored support vehicles are #25; #27 and 28 are chassis and turrets respectively for #24 and 25.

 

[eckherl]

Yes. In particular since any Marder would have to be exported directly from Germany.

Actually, since 2000, there's a EU Council decision on this. Weapons of War may not be exported to countries if "there is a risk that the equipment can be used in internal repression", with deeper analysis if bought for "internal use" by a nation; additionally, no EU country may export weapons into a state, in which these weapons would "prolong" or "escalate" an armed conflict.
That's just the two points that might be applicable to Iraq; there're more points, e.g. with regard to "potential use against own or Allied troops", or "re-transfer to terrorist groups".

For Germany, "Weapons of War" are clearly defined by a list of 62 generalized items. Tanks are #24 on that list, AFVs including armored support vehicles are #25; #27 and 28 are chassis and turrets respectively for #24 and 25.

I never realized that all EU countries followed the same guidelines, as always Kato some pretty neat information to know.

Thank you

 

[Feanor]

Actually, since 2000, there's a EU Council decision on this. Weapons of War may not be exported to countries if "there is a risk that the equipment can be used in internal repression",

So then we need to define internal repression. Are separatist rebels an internal enemy or an external occupied nation?

with deeper analysis if bought for "internal use" by a nation; additionally, no EU country may export weapons into a state, in which these weapons would "prolong" or "escalate" an armed conflict.

Hehehehe. What a way to put it. Gotta love bureaucrats. So if the weapons will shorten the conflict giving one or the other side decisive overmatch, then it's ok. So it's simply a matter of selling more weapons