Syrian Internal Conflict

[gf0012-aust]

Nope, ethnic cleansing refers to the forecful removal of a popualce based on their ethnicity, race, or religion. An entire town in Libya, Tawragah was targeted, it was a home to mostly black migrant workers.

They were targeted after hostilites ceased. They were forcefully removed from their homes and put into camps. This is defined as ethnic cleansing. Whatever the reason is (only some were acutually used as mercs) it still does not justify ethnic cleansing. BBC News - 'Cleansed' Libyan town spills its terrible secrets

am not defending or justifying ethnic cleansing at all, the reality is that arabs turned against blacks and made assumptions that they were part of his mercenary cohort. No shortage of footage which shows the then rebels stating this in the clear

I don't think there are any Kurds or marshes in Libya. You are referring to Saddam Hussein, I think, which is another matter entriely.

correct, my bad

 

[STURM]

With regimes they have a more vested interest in survival so they do not usually act in a suicidal manner.

So very true, yet the establishment press keeps reminding us that a nuclear armed Iran, and previously Iraq, will threaten the West and launch a missile at Israel and Europe. Or that they will pass a dirty bomb to terrorists who in turn will smuggle it into London or Washington.

Muammar Gaddafi did all those things as well, and if a journalist was smart (and could get into Libya at all) he did not report them, at least if he ever wanted to see his family again.

Quite a number of writers were granted visas, visited Libya and have wrote critically on Gadaffi. Writers like David Yallop and Eric Margolis even met Gadaffi.

 

[Herodotus]

am not defending or justifying ethnic cleansing at all, the reality is that arabs turned against blacks and made assumptions that they were part of his mercenary cohort. No shortage of footage which shows the then rebels stating this in the clear

Exactly, which makes the rebels not much better than Qadafhi, which is my point. The rebels assumed all blacks in Libya were mercenaries or Qadafhi allies-they didn't distinguish between the innocent and guilty, and thus engaged in war crimes.

The Syrian rebels want to model themselves on the Libyan rebels; my fear is they will mirror them too closely.

 

[lucinator]

If someone could provide me a news article about this ethnic cleansing from a reliable news source that would be great, since Ive checked bbc, abc, nbc, AP, routers, cnn, fox, and MSNBC and come up with nothing.

either way this is off topic and needs to go back to syria

 

[Herodotus]

If someone could provide me a news article about this ethnic cleansing from a reliable news source that would be great, since Ive checked bbc, abc, nbc, AP, routers, cnn, fox, and MSNBC and come up with nothing.

either way this is off topic and needs to go back to syria

I provdied it in my previous post. Here it is again:

BBC News - 'Cleansed' Libyan town spills its terrible secrets

Ethnic cleansing is defined as the forceable removal of a people based on their race, ethnicity, or religion. The people in Tawahreg cannot return to their homes, they were forced out.


Per the BBC source:

The 30,000 people living in a town in northern Libya have been driven out of their homes, in what appears to have been an act of revenge for their role in the three-month siege of the city of Misrata.

. Human rights groups have described this as an act of revenge and collective punishment possibly amounting to a crime against humanity.

Tawerghans are mostly descendants of black slaves. They are generally poor, were patronised by the Gaddafi regime and were broadly supporters of his regime. Some signed up to fight for him as the regime fought for its survival.

What happened in Misrata and Tawergha revealed one of the fault lines in Libya. It illustrates how difficult national reconciliation is going to be in some areas. It can also be seen as an example of the victors in the war that overthrew Gaddafi imposing summary and brutal justice on some of the communities that sided with the former regime and were vanquished.

They were specifically targeted because they were black. Whether they had acutally fought for Qadfahi or not was irrevelant to the rebels, they were all deemed to be guilty.

This releates to Syria because the Syrian rebels are modelling themselves on the Libyan rebels. Syria is similar to Libya in that it is tribal based, but with more ethnic and religious minorities. So if Assad falls it is quite possible we could see acts of revenge that amount to war crimes, including ethnic cleansing, by the rebels like what happened in Libya. Thus, it is not off topic.

 

[Feanor]

I provdied it in my previous post. Here it is again:

BBC News - 'Cleansed' Libyan town spills its terrible secrets

Ethnic cleansing is defined as the forceable removal of a people based on their race, ethnicity, or religion. The people in Tawahreg cannot return to their homes, they were forced out.


Per the BBC source:

The 30,000 people living in a town in northern Libya have been driven out of their homes, in what appears to have been an act of revenge for their role in the three-month siege of the city of Misrata.



They were specifically targeted because they were black. Whether they had acutally fought for Qadfahi or not was irrevelant to the rebels, they were all deemed to be guilty.

This releates to Syria because the Syrian rebels are modelling themselves on the Libyan rebels. Syria is similar to Libya in that it is tribal based, but with more ethnic and religious minorities. So if Assad falls it is quite possible we could see acts of revenge that amount to war crimes, including ethnic cleansing, by the rebels like what happened in Libya. Thus, it is not off topic.

Is it ethnic cleansing by a central government against a local ethnicity? Or is it just ethnic violence? Many of these places don't have solid national identities, and before they were run by their respective dictators, had multiple local competing tribes that never particularly got along. Kick out the dictators government, and what we internationally with our Western-shaped eyes perceive to be a nation, quickly turns into a bunch of small warring groups. So yes the rebels in Libya targeted many blacks. But is this because of a policy of ethnic cleansing, or is it just a side effect of the instability?

 

[lucinator]

Apon reading your article it is clear that you (Herodotus) have no idea what ethnic cleansing really is. Driving every resident from a town is NOT ethnic cleansing. According to your article is appears these people were the target of "mob justice" This is a common though sad occurrence is areas of upheaval following a civil war, In my country in the 1860's there were many cases much worse than this following our civil war. For this to be ethnic cleansing then:

One: they would have to been killed not driven from their home.
Two: it would have to have been because of their race, which it seems it wasn't (according to the article it was due to the towns support of gaddaffi and potentially committing war crimes themselves.
Lastly the crime needs to be orchestrated by a central authority not just a relatively spontaneous act.

If in the future you decide to argue a point or in your case purposely muddle a situation. Then I suggest you at least do enough research to know what you are talking about.

Lastly this is about Syria not Libya and To get things back on topic I want to point out a fact that runs counter to your rebels are all terrorists argument. According to Aviation week Syria has been giving large amounts of ballistic missiles and long range sams to known terrorist groups so the argument that supporting the rebels would give weapons to terrorist is rendered moot since the government is already doing just that and to a greater degree than any rebels in the past have ever done, in any country.

 

[Bonza]

Can we not get bogged down in the semantics of terminology, please?

 

[STURM]

According to Aviation week Syria has been giving large amounts of ballistic missiles and long range sams to known terrorist groups

Have any photos ever been released of the handful of Scuds that were reported to have been supplied to Hezbollah by Syria?

 

[Herodotus]

Apon reading your article it is clear that you (Herodotus) have no idea what ethnic cleansing really is. Driving every resident from a town is NOT ethnic cleansing. According to your article is appears these people were the target of "mob justice" This is a common though sad occurrence is areas of upheaval following a civil war, In my country in the 1860's there were many cases much worse than this following our civil war. For this to be ethnic cleansing then:

One: they would have to been killed not driven from their home.
Two: it would have to have been because of their race, which it seems it wasn't (according to the article it was due to the towns support of gaddaffi and potentially committing war crimes themselves.
Lastly the crime needs to be orchestrated by a central authority not just a relatively spontaneous act..

The Mods don't want us to get bogged down in this so I will be brief. You need to learn more about ethnic cleansing. It is more than just killing. And what happened in Libya was systematic and not spontaneous.

If in the future you decide to argue a point or in your case purposely muddle a situation. Then I suggest you at least do enough research to know what you are talking about.

You don't know who I am, but I will tell you that I have studied international law, international politics and security studies in-depth. I have multiple post-graduate degrees and have published in peer-reviewed academic journals. I am not saying I am always right but I do have sufficent knowledge base to discuss these issues. If you want to question my knowledge, or my research ability, or would like to know more about international law I would be more than happy to debate you in another thread or even another forum on this topic. However you should refrain from personal attacks.

Lastly this is about Syria not Libya and To get things back on topic I want to point out a fact that runs counter to your rebels are all terrorists argument. According to Aviation week Syria has been giving large amounts of ballistic missiles and long range sams to known terrorist groups so the argument that supporting the rebels would give weapons to terrorist is rendered moot since the government is already doing just that and to a greater degree than any rebels in the past have ever done, in any country.

I never said the rebels were all terrorists. I said some were members of al Qaeda had infiltrated the rebels. Please refrain from using logical fallacies in your argument. Also I think you need to back up that claim that Assad would give ballistic missles to terrorist organizations.

 

[Herodotus]

Have any photos ever been released of the handful of Scuds that were reported to have been supplied to Hezbollah by Syria?

I think the claim is not reliable as the Lebonese government denied it:

The Lebanese government today angrily denounced Israeli claims that Syria has supplied Hezbollah militia with Scud ballistic missiles, comparing it with the misinformation about weapons of mass destruction in the leadup to the Iraq war.

Lebanon: Syria has not supplied Scud missiles to Hezbollah | World news | The Guardian

That kind of a transfer of ballistic missles to a non-state actor is very, very unlikely in my view.

 

[My2Cents]

I think the claim is not reliable as the Lebonese government denied it:

Lebanon: Syria has not supplied Scud missiles to Hezbollah | World news | The Guardian

That kind of a transfer of ballistic missles to a non-state actor is very, very unlikely in my view.

Wouldn’t make sense to do so, or for Hezbollah to accept the offer. Scud’s use liquid fueled, kerosene + red fuming nitric acid, something that Hezbollah has no experience with and would not want to fool with.

But Syria also manufactures the solid fuel M-600, those would make more sense. Hezbollah is also known to have the Iranian ZelZol-2.

 

[lucinator]

I think the claim is not reliable as the Lebonese government denied it:



Lebanon: Syria has not supplied Scud missiles to Hezbollah | World news | The Guardian

That kind of a transfer of ballistic missles to a non-state actor is very, very unlikely in my view.

you do realize this article is two years old, right, also aviation week is a very credible source of information, they cite their source as the US DOD so im more inclined to believe it over Lebanon who would be greatly embarrassed by terrorist holding ballistic missiles in their country and not being able to do anything about it, also it seems that Syria is transferring SAM's as well, the ballistic missiles transferred are believed to be possible frog-7's and SS-21's.

 

[Herodotus]

you do realize this article is two years old, right, also aviation week is a very credible source of information, they cite their source as the US DOD so im more inclined to believe it over Lebanon who would be greatly embarrassed by terrorist holding ballistic missiles in their country and not being able to do anything about it, also it seems that Syria is transferring SAM's as well, the ballistic missiles transferred are believed to be possible frog-7's and SS-21's.

The rumor has been around for a long time. What date is the Aviation Week article, you didn't cite your source. Ballistic missle transfers are usually from Iran to Hezbollah not from Syria to Hezbollah.

And finally ballistic missles are not WMD are they? WMD is defined as nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, and I specifically stated weapons of mass destruction as my concern when it came to the rebels. With Assad we know where his WMD are, with the rebels, with their terrorist elements, it is more like a crapshoot.

 

[Herodotus]

This line of argumentation has gone beyond my original point, which is that the Syrian rebels should not be considered as monolithically good. The rebels have a mixture of motivations at this point, and not all those motivations will align with Western states' strategic goals.

If the Assad regime does fall it is probable that Syria may divide along tribal, ethnic, and/or sectarian lines, and the fighting will probably not end, and the levels of violence could increase.

Those people pushing for intervention should be aware of this. Assad is bad no doubt, but sometimes there are worse things then Assad. That is all from me, for now.

 

[STURM]

kind of a transfer of ballistic missles to a non-state actor is very, very unlikely in my view.

If I'm not mistaken Iraq supplied a handful of Scuds to Michel Aouns people during the Lebanon civil war. From the perspective of Hezbollah, plenty of 3rd generation MANPADs and ATGWs would be much more useful than Scuds.

If the Assad regime does fall it is probable that Syria may divide along tribal, ethnic, and/or sectarian lines, and the fighting will probably not end, and the levels of violence could increase.

Well it depends. Assad would certainly like the world to think so and if the reports are true, most of the Christians and Druze back Assad, due to similar fears.

 

[lucinator]

The rumor has been around for a long time. What date is the Aviation Week article, you didn't cite your source. Ballistic missle transfers are usually from Iran to Hezbollah not from Syria to Hezbollah.

And finally ballistic missles are not WMD are they? WMD is defined as nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, and I specifically stated weapons of mass destruction as my concern when it came to the rebels. With Assad we know where his WMD are, with the rebels, with their terrorist elements, it is more like a crapshoot.

one the article was last week, second I never mentioned him giving WMD's to hezbollah.

Text deleted. That last bit was unnecessary.

 

[Bonza]

one the article was last week, second I never mentioned him giving WMD's to hezbollah. At this point it is obvious your just trolling, and making shit up.

Pull your head in, last chance.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Closed for Mod review

Seriously, some of you need to pause a bit and cool down a tad.

It's a debate, we're not conquering Mars and there's no need to go to war against each other.

Where sources are cited then everyone will make a call on the validity and merit of accuracy of the articles concerned. Some will accept, some will challenge, but there is no need to arc up at each other.

Read the Forum Rules again before this post gets unlocked.

 

[OPSSG]

Thread re-opened.