Syria says repulses Israeli jets
- Thread starter XaNDeR
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Hmm, the German weekly Spiegel in the 38/2007 issue (Sep. 17) published a version that seems to support the Syrian side somewhat.
(short article, not for free, available on their site)
Summary from the print version:
Apparently, German soldiers aboard the ELINT ship Oker, non-officially attached to UNIFIL, detected two Israeli F-15 entering Syrian airspace. A UNIFIL officer is quoted with a version sounding close to the Syrian version: That the two aircraft were detected shortly after entering Syrian airspace by Syrian air-defense forces, and then dropped external tanks to get out of there.
Comments from me:
If things happened as told above, Oker would have been able to assemble the above data from emissions in the area, easily. The three Type 423 ELINT ships were built to put close surveillance on Soviet Forces over the Baltic Sea, carry a rather big sensor suite, and the necessary equipment and specialists to analyze this data onboard, or send it via satcom to the necessary people. Their specialization in the early 90s was to exactly identify Russian squadrons down to the individual ship just by their EM emissions (radar mostly), at which they were rather successful.
Germany originally wanted to include a Type 423 (as well as subs for sea recon) officially into UNIFIL. However, Israel protested this back then - due to these ELINT ships with their radar range being able to detect pretty much all air traffic over Israel, Lebanon and parts of Syria. The result is that a Type 423 (and a SSK) are now always "just coincidentally" in the area. Oker was the ship mock-attacked by six Israeli F16 last year.
(short article, not for free, available on their site)
Summary from the print version:
Apparently, German soldiers aboard the ELINT ship Oker, non-officially attached to UNIFIL, detected two Israeli F-15 entering Syrian airspace. A UNIFIL officer is quoted with a version sounding close to the Syrian version: That the two aircraft were detected shortly after entering Syrian airspace by Syrian air-defense forces, and then dropped external tanks to get out of there.
Comments from me:
If things happened as told above, Oker would have been able to assemble the above data from emissions in the area, easily. The three Type 423 ELINT ships were built to put close surveillance on Soviet Forces over the Baltic Sea, carry a rather big sensor suite, and the necessary equipment and specialists to analyze this data onboard, or send it via satcom to the necessary people. Their specialization in the early 90s was to exactly identify Russian squadrons down to the individual ship just by their EM emissions (radar mostly), at which they were rather successful.
Germany originally wanted to include a Type 423 (as well as subs for sea recon) officially into UNIFIL. However, Israel protested this back then - due to these ELINT ships with their radar range being able to detect pretty much all air traffic over Israel, Lebanon and parts of Syria. The result is that a Type 423 (and a SSK) are now always "just coincidentally" in the area. Oker was the ship mock-attacked by six Israeli F16 last year.
Ummm sounds a bit too simple. I HAVE NO IDEA what happened. But what I do know is that the Israelis seem very pleased by the results. The Syrians are being strangely quiet about a blatant act of war. It's possible that the USA and Turkey may have known about the raid. It's possible that Turkey is somehow involved. Syrian IAD seems rather ineffective. The F-15I is a very capable fighter-bomber. Everything else is speculation AFAIK.
-DA
The Israelies have disclosed no results, have not even said what happened, we have had conflicting reports, Hezzbullah arms shipments, North Korean Nuclear arms, Iranian Missles, Syrian Nuclear Arm's programmes... If it was any of the above oranything which threathened Israel's security position, they would be singing it from the rafters.
Added to that, the Syrians have not reacted other than to issue proforma condemnations, they have not even increased there readiness (according to the Israelies). Why? maybe because nothing happened. The most reliable sources have been the UK Sunday Times and John Bolton, wow.
In the absence of any evidence what so ever from anyone with any credibility I'm going to say it....Nothing Happened.
The only impartial military source we have is Spiegel, and that seems to support the contention that sweet FA happened. But that seems to be it, a few newspaper reports and a neocon hasbeen. This whole thing has stunk from the start. A wild Weasel raid, nothing more nothing less.
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw070926_1_n.shtml
"........While officially Israel has kept quiet about the 5 September air raid in northeast Syria, Israeli opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu has broken the silence and provided a first public acknowledgment of the incident....."
Confirmation of sorts that 'something' happened!
I wonder when the full story will come out?
rb
"........While officially Israel has kept quiet about the 5 September air raid in northeast Syria, Israeli opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu has broken the silence and provided a first public acknowledgment of the incident....."
Confirmation of sorts that 'something' happened!
I wonder when the full story will come out?
rb
There are covert missions going on by most countries all the time. Some are more bold than others.
Unless Israel wants/needs to go to war, something they risked by the "mission," then yes, Israel would reveal what they hit, what they took ("here everyone take a look, fresh nuclear material from N.K. and some VX made in Syria. We have pictures of 'that loud boom' which, took place a few weeks before, as well (no, not an 'underground ammo dump explosion'). These are pics of a bunch of Iranians and Syrians who died while trying to play around with missile warheads/payloads. Here is Iran smuggling the Shihab 3 onto an IRGC base in Syria. You want to see Russian ships in a Syrian port...? this is our intel knows about we have told the public everything..."
The Scuds are in Syria, they've had them there (IIRC) since the late 1980s- (I believe the globalsecurity.org site--above--has pics of a large base, with its buildup.
Things like kaytushas and "small arms" are just trucked across the boarder.
Why? Israel received virtually no negative response from their neighbors or the world (save, Syria, NK, Iran). Israel isn't going to explain what they did. I don't want to speak for the Syrians, but I highly doubt a detailed explanation will be given to even the higher-ups. I could be wrong, but a "Court Marshall" in Syria is probably no joke.
Israel has made a statement that they can do "anything" over Syria.
Why taunt them, and try to provoke a war!?!
It's the, "You stole my drugs" dilemma (AKA "Getting caught red handed").
Again, the Israelis aren't trying to escalate the situation. They don't want the Syrian/Iranian people believing war is in a few minutes--this is why Israel is happy with "Nothing happened."
That's fine, to each their own!
It's sort of like, "A tree falls in the middle of a forrest and nobody's around, does it make a sound"?
My answer regarding "sound," may completely different than yours, however, how the question of "noise or silence" doesn't change the fact that "A tree did fall"!!
:cheers
RE: Netanyahu,
Bibi's "slip," was for domestic political consumption. Very difficult to explain unless one understands the ins and outs of Israeli politics.
contedicavour
New Member
They still have a few MIG29s that could try to launch R73 and R77 against Israeli F15 and F16s... plus some rumours on MIG31s...
though I do agree that with an unmodernized air defence system (radars and long range SAMs) the MIG29s would have to be very very lucky...
cheers
suddendeath
New Member
there were reports of fuel tanks jettisoned near turkey that was rumour
personally im worrying why didnt their anti aircraft batteries detect them
especially the new radars.
personally im worrying why didnt their anti aircraft batteries detect them
especially the new radars.
Syria
Massive jamming from what I heard and Syria didn't even know for a time they were being jammed. Bet you Iran's military a little worry too about why there air defense radar's didn't detect the raid. Both countries air denses are on or about the same level tech.
As far as I know Syria hasen't bought new or had any real upgrades done in years those Mig-29 I can only assume are older A or 9.12 model. Since Israeli's F-16I are better and they alway had very good F-15s I think little change from the 1982 ass kicking, little would change now. Syrian pilots would be flying with one hand on the ejection handel. Don't worry I don't think Syria's AF has 82 flyable jets.
Not a rumor Israeli jets entered Syrian air space
.
Massive jamming from what I heard and Syria didn't even know for a time they were being jammed. Bet you Iran's military a little worry too about why there air defense radar's didn't detect the raid. Both countries air denses are on or about the same level tech.
As far as I know Syria hasen't bought new or had any real upgrades done in years those Mig-29 I can only assume are older A or 9.12 model. Since Israeli's F-16I are better and they alway had very good F-15s I think little change from the 1982 ass kicking, little would change now. Syrian pilots would be flying with one hand on the ejection handel. Don't worry I don't think Syria's AF has 82 flyable jets.
A "rumour" backed up by pictures in the Turkish press, official Turkish briefings saying the Turkish government had asked Israel for an explanation, Israeli officials saying the Israeli Prime Minister had personally apologised to the Turkish Prime Minister, & the Turkish President publicly stating
'"It is no easy thing to discover that combat jets from a friendly state have penetrated your skies overnight. It is good that you apologised, even though the apology was late," Gul said an interview published on Tuesday in Israel's Maariv newspaper. "As we see it, the matter is closed and we hope that it will not be repeated in the future,"'
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06691733.htm
More information on the raid and maybe why
I did a little hunting and found three links there are many more. There seems to be a little ties between North Korea, not a good thing for the region. I thought I read that the Israeli's put forces on the ground and took pictures and that the North Koreans were called out by this. I didn't see that doing a few quick searches maybe not enough proof was found I can't remember. I read the last listed link all the time good military aviation blog.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2461421.ece
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/01/mideast.main/index.html
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Story?id=3752687
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909608.html
Why Syria's Air Defenses Failed to Detect Israelis
Posted by David A. Fulghum at 10/3/2007 5:41 AM
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...79a7Post:2710d024-5eda-416c-b117-ae6d649146cd
I did a little hunting and found three links there are many more. There seems to be a little ties between North Korea, not a good thing for the region. I thought I read that the Israeli's put forces on the ground and took pictures and that the North Koreans were called out by this. I didn't see that doing a few quick searches maybe not enough proof was found I can't remember. I read the last listed link all the time good military aviation blog.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2461421.ece
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/01/mideast.main/index.html
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Story?id=3752687
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909608.html
Why Syria's Air Defenses Failed to Detect Israelis
Posted by David A. Fulghum at 10/3/2007 5:41 AM
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...79a7Post:2710d024-5eda-416c-b117-ae6d649146cd
Will the Russian naval radars & AWACS planes be any better, once they establish their permament presence in the E.Med?
Turkey, with her impressive armed forces and US-supplied AWACS, may also switch sides, but in any case, Armenia is a de-facto ally of Syria & Iran, since her rival Azerbajan is supported by US & Turkey.
Turkey, with her impressive armed forces and US-supplied AWACS, may also switch sides, but in any case, Armenia is a de-facto ally of Syria & Iran, since her rival Azerbajan is supported by US & Turkey.
Last edited by a moderator:
Radar
Hi Firehorse
I know the Turkey-Kurd issue puts the US between a rock and a hard place. Reading what some vets said on another forum the Kurds in Iraq have been helpful and really allies. Some of the safest parts of Iraq for US Forces are in the Kurdish sections of the country. Turkey has been a US allied since the Cold War days and basically at times in histroy been threaten by Russian forces for allowing US Forces to operate out of Turkey. Some of the threats were intense but they stood by the US. Turkey has been very true allie not only for the US but NATO forces as well. It puts the US in a difficult place. I think if I were a Kurd I would move away the Turkish border. Talk or read about what the Turkish think about the KKP are and you'll find a very differenr view on them. I'm not sure how this region was split up I think a lillte before WW-I and some after. I'm willing to learn.
Hi Firehorse
Where will this permament presences be? Syria maybe? I'm not sure what you mean by the above comment? The Syrians and Iranians use Russia made radar and gear now and Israeli and US forces have little trouble going through it.
The US and Turkey aren't seeing eye to eye on everything I agree with you on that but swiching sides I'm not sure. They have been an allied for a long time and use US made weapons mainly so cutting ties with the United States is pretty slim I think.
I know Iran and Syria are close but honestly I'm not strong on who's on who's side and about Armenia I know little about. Maybe somebody could shed a little insight on this and this region a little.
I know the Turkey-Kurd issue puts the US between a rock and a hard place. Reading what some vets said on another forum the Kurds in Iraq have been helpful and really allies. Some of the safest parts of Iraq for US Forces are in the Kurdish sections of the country. Turkey has been a US allied since the Cold War days and basically at times in histroy been threaten by Russian forces for allowing US Forces to operate out of Turkey. Some of the threats were intense but they stood by the US. Turkey has been very true allie not only for the US but NATO forces as well. It puts the US in a difficult place. I think if I were a Kurd I would move away the Turkish border. Talk or read about what the Turkish think about the KKP are and you'll find a very differenr view on them. I'm not sure how this region was split up I think a lillte before WW-I and some after. I'm willing to learn.
The RFN/AF will add more radars into the mix, in and around Syria & Israel. Being forward deployed means having the latest avail. electronics. And they may deploy AWACS and ships into Iran itself & the S.Black/Caspian seas to gain more coverage. This will, IMO, make the Israelis job a lot harder next time.
I meant that Turkey may not be so cooperative with Israel in the future- irrespective of the US-Turkey ties. The Kurds themselves are divided into different factions, just like the Chechens.
I meant that Turkey may not be so cooperative with Israel in the future- irrespective of the US-Turkey ties. The Kurds themselves are divided into different factions, just like the Chechens.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
The Israeli bombing of of Syria was of mutual Israli-Turkish interest. Two countries that have very close military ties.
That's what deniability looks like - not Tu-160 in Iranian roundels.
Turkey and Iran are regional competitors, not potential allies, just as Russia is seen as a competitor.
They are not natural allies.
Armenia and Azerbaijan are aligning themselves with the West (Greece/US and Turkey/US).
About the only thing you got right is that Russia might, just might, deploy a reasonable capable radar on a Russian naval base. And this would be a worry.
But then it is about deniability "Chinese embassy in Belgrade" style.
That's what deniability looks like - not Tu-160 in Iranian roundels.
Turkey and Iran are regional competitors, not potential allies, just as Russia is seen as a competitor.
They are not natural allies.
Armenia and Azerbaijan are aligning themselves with the West (Greece/US and Turkey/US).
About the only thing you got right is that Russia might, just might, deploy a reasonable capable radar on a Russian naval base. And this would be a worry.
But then it is about deniability "Chinese embassy in Belgrade" style.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" principle doesn't work in this context, as Armenias biggest supporter is the USA. Iran is anxious not to make an enemy of Azerbaijan, because of Irans own very large Azeri minority (much more than the population of Azerbaijan, the second most numerous ethnic group in the country, & - so far - loyal to Iran): cosying up to Armenia would be bad realpolitik, as well as being contrary to Irans generally religion-based politics. Can anyone really imagine Iran antagonising one of only two other Shia-majority, Shia-governed (nominally - in practice Azerbaijan is rather irreligious) states in order to make friends with a poor, Christian (and partly defining itself by religion), pro-US state?
Not that Iran is a friend of Azerbaijan: the latter is too pro-Turkey, pro-West, secular & wary of Iran for ancient nationalistic reasons. But Iran is in no way aligned, whether overtly or de facto, with Armenia against Azerbaijan. Or even Turkey. Turkey & Azerbaijan are friendly, for historical & ethnic reasons (the languages are close enough that some Turks argue Azeri is a dialect of Turkish), but Turks are uncomfortable with Azerbaijans "democracy in one family" government, & there's a bit of Sunni-Shia tension between them, most Turks being Sunni & most Azeris being Shia.
It's all more complicated than you imagine, but in some ways more rigid. Turkey will not "switch sides". I don't think you've ever been to Turkey, or talked to Turks, as if you had you'd realise how unrealistic that notion is. Suggest that Turkey might ally itself with Russia or Iran & they'd look at you as if you're crazy. Both are ancient enemies. Neither is trusted in the slightest. Both are suspected (sometimes rightly) of fomenting unrest in Turkey & on its borders. Iran is looked down on. No Arab country would be considered suitable for an alliance (Arab clients might be accepted). Syria claims a few Turkish border provinces.
The Turkish-Iranian border goes back a long way. It's fluctuated at times, but the current border was established at least 200 years ago, except for very minor adjustments. The Iraq-Iran border was part of that Turkey-Iran border until 1918.
The Russians took the Caucasus in the 19th century, piece by piece, from Turkey, Iran, & small local states.. The current Turkey-Georgia & Turkey-Armenia borders were established at the beginning of the 1920s. Before WW1, the Russians controlled parts of what is now NE Turkey - but they'd only taken it from Turkey in the late 19th century. The Turkey-Syria & Turkey-Iraq borders were established in 1923, except for Hatay, which was ruled by the French as part of Syria until 1938, when it was ceded to Turkey.
Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, N. Yemen, Hejaz, Asir & Al Hasa (the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia) were ruled by Turkey before WW1. Saudi Arabia was two independent states, one Saudi centred on Riyadh (extinguished by the other in the 1880s, re-established 1901), the other centred on Hail in the northwest. It was conquered by the Saudis just after WW1. Al Hasa was seized by the Saudis in a coup de main just before the war, & Turkish plans to reclaim it were pre-empted by the war. The rest were taken from Turkey as part of the post-war settlement (most were captured by the Allies in 1918), & carved up into independent Hejaz & Asir (both conquered by the Saudis in the late 1920s), independent Yemen, & British & French protectorates in Iraq, Syria/Lebanon, Palestine & Jordan, independent after WW2. The Gulf states were British protectorates before WW1, formally independent in the 1960s.
Armenia (including much of what is now eastern Turkey), Georgia & Azerbaijan were briefly independent after WW1, until a resurgent Turkey & the new Bolshevik government in Moscow carved them up. Much of Turkey was occupied by Britain, Italy, France & Greece after WW1. The Greeks lost most of their army as a result (the Turks gave back the survivors in 1923, IIRC), the others withdrew under pressure, & agreed to ditch the first post-WW1 peace treaty & negotiate a new one, setting Turkeys current (except for Hatay) borders.
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