Surface vessel decoys and countermeasures

alexsa

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Staff member
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Are there any ASW counter measure nerds out there? See my post #9

C'mon guys, I knew that ASW has taken a back seat since the end of the cold war but really:
On Swan we were wondering what effect a limbo salvo would have if dropped in the general vicintiy of an oncoming heavy weight. Accuracy would always be the issue (as is was a very basic system) but if you got close (and that is a BIG if) it should have played merry hell with the weapons transducer.
 

alexsa

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If its a missile, why not have a helo up with a radar enhancer on it to provide a moving decoy beneath it, and give the incoming missile another target to track on. Especially if fired from over the horizon, the missile may activate early and seeing multiple radar contacts pick the wrong one. Going to suck for the pilot though unless you figure out how to get the decoy to hover on its own once a missile locks onto it.

Sorry if this is stupid, just something I have wondered about.
Look up Nulka. Essentially it does just this.

EDIT, sorry should read down, I note this was covered by Bonza. :(
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
On Swan we were wondering what effect a limbo salvo would have if dropped in the general vicintiy of an oncoming heavy weight. Accuracy would always be the issue (as is was a very basic system) but if you got close (and that is a BIG if) it should have played merry hell with the weapons transducer.
only problem with that is timing. I can't remember exactly but time in air and time to shallowest setting takes forever.
Attached is one of my efforts in AchillesView attachment 5980
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
2) Enter complete EMCON. Some missiles use anti-radiation homing to determine which return it is receiving is the actual target. Going into EMCON would prevent the missile from picking up any signals that might give away which radar return is the actual ship.
Do we know which missiles have anti-radiation homing?

It's been stated in various articles that some Russian missiles have ''home on jam technology'', to be used against targets that have employed active jammers. I'm not sure which missiles have this technology or even if this technology has actually been introduced.
 

Tico90

Banned Member
Do we know which missiles have anti-radiation homing?

It's been stated in various articles that some Russian missiles have ''home on jam technology'', to be used against targets that have employed active jammers. I'm not sure which missiles have this technology or even if this technology has actually been introduced.
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly which missiles have that sort of homing. I've heard about if before, but I'm not sure if it's actually the case, or it's just from the "Russia has developed a new missile that is INVINCIBLE!!!!!" crowd.

I mean, it sounds possible, but that obviously doesn't mean that it has been done. So no, I'm not sure exactly. I just included that because I was assuming they did exist.

Basically, I'm just trying to get confirmation as to whether what I'm saying is realistic, or a complete load of garbage.
 

Todjaeger

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Yeah, I'm not sure exactly which missiles have that sort of homing. I've heard about if before, but I'm not sure if it's actually the case, or it's just from the "Russia has developed a new missile that is INVINCIBLE!!!!!" crowd.

I mean, it sounds possible, but that obviously doesn't mean that it has been done. So no, I'm not sure exactly. I just included that because I was assuming they did exist.

Basically, I'm just trying to get confirmation as to whether what I'm saying is realistic, or a complete load of garbage.
The first thing which comes to mind is whether the Russians have fielded a missile with a multi-mode seeker or not. If they have not yet done so, then I suspect the talk of an AShM with an anti-radiation seeker is just that, talk.

Now if the Russians have devised a way to have an active-radar seeker head to the 'strongest' source of signals (i.e. a jammer) that could be what some are mistaking for an ARM seeker. All the same though, unless an AShM is equipped with a datalink and has an offboard sensor to feed volume and terminal guidance, I suspect the missiles will still use radar seekers.

-Cheers
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
If you want something off net sources, try to find out who Finmeccanica WASS has sold their 5-inch rocket based torpedo decoy system, C310, to. Their website says it's currently in production, but you'll have to google a bit to find out for who they're selling to (and you'll only find the UAE - two launchers, three years ago... gee, starting a production line for that?
A local blog source believes that the Singapore Navy is also using the C310, because it provides two types of effectors - stationary jammers and mobile target emulators. It has also confirmed that the Formidable Class vessels have a 22-tube array of the EADS New Generation Dagaie System (NGDS) launchers installed; but unfortunately, these new EADS launchers on the Formidable Class are always covered (at every picture taking opportunity).
 

Tico90

Banned Member
The first thing which comes to mind is whether the Russians have fielded a missile with a multi-mode seeker or not. If they have not yet done so, then I suspect the talk of an AShM with an anti-radiation seeker is just that, talk.

Now if the Russians have devised a way to have an active-radar seeker head to the 'strongest' source of signals (i.e. a jammer) that could be what some are mistaking for an ARM seeker. All the same though, unless an AShM is equipped with a datalink and has an offboard sensor to feed volume and terminal guidance, I suspect the missiles will still use radar seekers.

-Cheers
Well, thanks for clearing that up!

On a related note, does anyone have any feedback on the idea I was mentioning?
 

CB90

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Verified Defense Pro
Well, thanks for clearing that up!

On a related note, does anyone have any feedback on the idea I was mentioning?
It's not nonsense, but it would obviously be tailored depending on the intel available on the threat.

All of this is a give and take.
Nulka works great..but as you've noted, it only addresses a subset of the threats. It also is conceivable to develop a seeker that takes a different radar approach to beat it.
EMCON is a tradeoff between how much you trust your hardkill systems vs how good you think your passive decoys are.
Defeating IIR's is hard with flares. Getting that angle right is tricky to begin with, and the missile can just incorporate a weave or varying flight paths to get around that. Or it could just take a sea skim trajectory through the flares if you're trying to hide behind them...which in general is why you usually want your decoy systems way the hell away from you.
Some stuff that's being looked at is using a DEW to actively blind the seeker and smoke/fog generators, but that has some problems similar to the wall of flares.

Generally speaking, most people aren't going to be comfortable relying on passive decoys and EMCON if they have a reliable hard kill system. But if you don't have financial/space/power budget to do it on your platform, you're pretty much left with no other options.

Do we know which missiles have anti-radiation homing?

It's been stated in various articles that some Russian missiles have ''home on jam technology'', to be used against targets that have employed active jammers. I'm not sure which missiles have this technology or even if this technology has actually been introduced.
Both ARH and HOJ are simple enough technologies well within the development capabilities of any near peer or modern (and more importantly - sufficiently wealthy) nation.
 

Tico90

Banned Member
It's not nonsense, but it would obviously be tailored depending on the intel available on the threat.

All of this is a give and take.
Nulka works great..but as you've noted, it only addresses a subset of the threats. It also is conceivable to develop a seeker that takes a different radar approach to beat it.
EMCON is a tradeoff between how much you trust your hardkill systems vs how good you think your passive decoys are.
Defeating IIR's is hard with flares. Getting that angle right is tricky to begin with, and the missile can just incorporate a weave or varying flight paths to get around that. Or it could just take a sea skim trajectory through the flares if you're trying to hide behind them...which in general is why you usually want your decoy systems way the hell away from you.
Some stuff that's being looked at is using a DEW to actively blind the seeker and smoke/fog generators, but that has some problems similar to the wall of flares.

Generally speaking, most people aren't going to be comfortable relying on passive decoys and EMCON if they have a reliable hard kill system.
My whole idea was using the IIR's abilities against it. One of the features of an IIR is it can determine the shape of its target -- a wall of flares looks like a decoy, whereas a ship, with a clear outline and hot spots in specific locations, looks much different, and the IIR uses this difference to discriminate a ship from decoys. However, if you blocked the ship with flares, the whole ship would lose its distinctive outline, and the IIR seeker would determine that it was not a target, because it doesn't have the ship-like shape it's looking for.

There's a video that shows the whole concept online. I can't post links, but it's on You Tube under the title: "Angel Decoys" NAVY / Rheinmetall MASS
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKhIIk2QDps"]Rheinmetall MASS - Anti Ship Missile Defence - YouTube[/nomedia]


Regarding EMCON, that's a very valid point -- it would be difficult to decide whether to use hard-kill or soft-kill systems. The good news (for NATO ships, anyways) is that they're moving towards a system where they can fire anti-air weapons in EMCON. Because of the Cooperative Engagement Capability, a ship in a Carrier Strike Group can receive targeting data from an E-2C/D, so it doesn't have to radiate to find a cruise missile. The SM-6 has an active seeker, and the upcoming Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile Block II will have one as well, so the ship doesn't have to radiate with fire control radars to fire them. The Rolling Airframe Missile and Phalanx CIWS use infrared and passive radar guidance, so they can operate without radiating as well.

Of course, you are very correct when you say the approach would have to be tailored to the threat. Like I've said, I don't have experience in the Navy, so I'm not attempting to recommend any particular course of action -- I'm just wondering if this (definitely highly generic) method would be effective in defeating cruise missiles with advanced multi-mode seekers.
 
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CB90

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My whole idea was using the IIR's abilities against it. One of the features of an IIR is it can determine the shape of its target -- a wall of flares looks like a decoy, whereas a ship, with a clear outline and hot spots in specific locations, looks much different, and the IIR uses this difference to discriminate a ship from decoys. However, if you blocked the ship with flares, the whole ship would lose its distinctive outline, and the IIR seeker would determine that it was not a target, because it doesn't have the ship-like shape it's looking for.

There's a video that shows the whole concept online. I can't post links, but it's on You Tube under the title: "Angel Decoys" NAVY / Rheinmetall MASS

Regarding EMCON, that's a very valid point -- it would be difficult to decide whether to use hard-kill or soft-kill systems. The good news (for NATO ships, anyways) is that they're moving towards a system where they can fire anti-air weapons in EMCON. Because of the Cooperative Engagement Capability, a ship in a Carrier Strike Group can receive targeting data from an E-2C/D, so it doesn't have to radiate to find a cruise missile. The SM-6 has an active seeker, and the upcoming Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile Block II will have one as well, so the ship doesn't have to radiate with fire control radars to fire them. The Rolling Airframe Missile and Phalanx CIWS use infrared and passive radar guidance, so they can operate without radiating as well.

Of course, you are very correct when you say the approach would have to be tailored to the threat. Like I've said, I don't have experience in the Navy, so I'm not attempting to recommend any particular course of action -- I'm just wondering if this (definitely highly generic) method would be effective in defeating cruise missiles with advanced multi-mode seekers.
The modern CIWS has an IR camera, but its anti missile programs need input from the radar. Same for RAM. I'd like to think you could theoretically develop a system that uses its laser ranging to operate without a radar but I almost don't think it would be worth the effort.

Saw the Rheinmetall vid, looks good, great pattern, and impressive stay time. That said, doesn't look like it does anything for anything with a pop up trajectory. Also appears to force the ship to stay put. Which is a problem if the missile just goes into sea skim and flies through the pattern. If there was a choice (ie if it was in the budget), I'd invest the money to be able to burn out the IIR seeker with a DEW.

CEC is a game changer, but the problem with going to a heavily datalink dependent system should be fairly obvious. Hell, the E-2 itself is a high value target for a peer/near-peer opponent...shoot some ARH AAMs at it and make it go defensive, and even if you don't kill it, it will take it out of the fight for a bit.
 

Tico90

Banned Member
The modern CIWS has an IR camera, but its anti missile programs need input from the radar. Same for RAM. I'd like to think you could theoretically develop a system that uses its laser ranging to operate without a radar but I almost don't think it would be worth the effort.

Saw the Rheinmetall vid, looks good, great pattern, and impressive stay time. That said, doesn't look like it does anything for anything with a pop up trajectory. Also appears to force the ship to stay put. Which is a problem if the missile just goes into sea skim and flies through the pattern. If there was a choice (ie if it was in the budget), I'd invest the money to be able to burn out the IIR seeker with a DEW.

CEC is a game changer, but the problem with going to a heavily datalink dependent system should be fairly obvious. Hell, the E-2 itself is a high value target for a peer/near-peer opponent...shoot some ARH AAMs at it and make it go defensive, and even if you don't kill it, it will take it out of the fight for a bit.
Hmm... that's pretty interesting information! I was wondering; what would be the typical flight pattern of a cruise missile using a pop-up trajectory?

The SRBOC/MASS system is designed to fire while the ship is moving -- it can fire follow-up shots ahead of the ship to keep the IR screen intact. Obviously, not including that would be a pretty big design oversight, because as you mentioned, you don't exactly want to be a sitting duck when an AShM is headed your way... :lol2

Edit: When you mentioned a pop-up trajectory, did you mean a radar (or in this case IIR) check pop-up? Sorry if I'm being a bit slow; I thought for a while that you meant a different kind of pop-up trajectory...
 

Todjaeger

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Edit: When you mentioned a pop-up trajectory, did you mean a radar (or in this case IIR) check pop-up? Sorry if I'm being a bit slow; I thought for a while that you meant a different kind of pop-up trajectory...
A pop-up trajectory essentially is where a sea-skimming AShM goes from flying just above the waves (~15 m, give or take a few meters) to a higher altitude or perhaps 100+ m shortly before impact. The idea being that once the AShM is 100+ m above the target, the missile will dive down into the target. Basically it should end up directing some of the force of the missile strike and likely the blast at a downward angle into the vessel below the waterline. In older sea-skimmers the force of the impact and much of the blast was parallel to the waterline. A successful hit could achieve a mission kill, but the vessel stood a better chance for survival and repair.

-Cheers
 

CB90

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Verified Defense Pro
Hmm... that's pretty interesting information! I was wondering; what would be the typical flight pattern of a cruise missile using a pop-up trajectory?

The SRBOC/MASS system is designed to fire while the ship is moving -- it can fire follow-up shots ahead of the ship to keep the IR screen intact. Obviously, not including that would be a pretty big design oversight, because as you mentioned, you don't exactly want to be a sitting duck when an AShM is headed your way... :lol2

Edit: When you mentioned a pop-up trajectory, did you mean a radar (or in this case IIR) check pop-up? Sorry if I'm being a bit slow; I thought for a while that you meant a different kind of pop-up trajectory...
The difference between an IR screen and traditional use of SRBOC systems, is the latter is designed to seduce the weapon into considering it a valid target, while the former is attempting to completely mask the signature of the platform.

For seduction decoys, it is great for the ship to be moving away from the target area, as it makes it less likely the ship will be targeted.

Masking signature with expendables is much more difficult if the platform is moving, because it reduces the time each expendable effectively covers you. If you run to/from the threat, it's going to smack into you anyway since you can't outrun a missile. If you travel offaxis, you outrun your screen very, very quickly or your expendable use rate goes up dramatically (probably unsupportable). And if you face a multi axis attack, you need to generate a 360 degree IR mask which is also somehow large enough to make it improbable a sea skim going through the screen will hit the ship, yet close enough to prevent reacquisition after the missile is through.

It's also not terribly complicated to change the guidance logic to popup if no valid target discrimination is possible in a sea skim trajectory.

That said, while the countermeasure are not infallible on their own, their existence can force compromise in weapon performance that working in concert with hard kill systems, increases the overall effectiveness of the system.
 

colay

New Member
Things are looking up for an anti-torpedo torpedo. Given the threat posed by super quiet SSKs to CVNs, I'm a bit surprised at the 2035 target date.





http://www.navsea.navy.mil/NewsView.aspx?nw=NewsWires&id=246

6/6/2013 First Carrier Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo Launched from : Team Submarine Public Affairs

USS George H. W. Bush (CVN 77) conducted the first aircraft carrier-borne end-to-end at-sea test of the Surface Ship Torpedo Defense (SSTD) System, May 15-19.

The SSTD System combines the passive detection capability of the Torpedo Warning System that not only finds torpedoes but also classifies and tracks them, with the hard-kill capability of the Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo — an encapsulated miniature torpedo.

... Over the four-day testing period, Bush engaged seven torpedo-like targets with seven Countermeasure Anti-Torpedoes. Designed to validate the end-to-end of the system, the testing proved successful.

...This first end-to-end test of the SSTD System achieved several firsts: the first Torpedo Warning System detection of targets from a carrier, the first automatic detection and automatic targeting of an incoming torpedo target from a ship; the first launch of Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo from a carrier and the first end to end Torpedo Warning System and Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo system detection-to-engage at-sea test.

..."What is currently aboard Bush is an engineering development model, or EDM, that is a fully-functioning system, but not the final configuration or production model," DelToro explained. "We’re learning from the Bush to improve the system so we can provide the most robust and cost-effective hard-kill anti-torpedo capability possible."

The Navy currently plans to equip all aircraft carriers and other high-value units with the Surface Ship Torpedo Defense system by 2035.

– NAVSEA –
 

Tico90

Banned Member
Things are looking up for an anti-torpedo torpedo. Given the threat posed by super quiet SSKs to CVNs, I'm a bit surprised at the 2035 target date.





http://www.navsea.navy.mil/NewsView.aspx?nw=NewsWires&id=246

6/6/2013 First Carrier Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo Launched from : Team Submarine Public Affairs

USS George H. W. Bush (CVN 77) conducted the first aircraft carrier-borne end-to-end at-sea test of the Surface Ship Torpedo Defense (SSTD) System, May 15-19.

The SSTD System combines the passive detection capability of the Torpedo Warning System that not only finds torpedoes but also classifies and tracks them, with the hard-kill capability of the Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo — an encapsulated miniature torpedo.

... Over the four-day testing period, Bush engaged seven torpedo-like targets with seven Countermeasure Anti-Torpedoes. Designed to validate the end-to-end of the system, the testing proved successful.

...This first end-to-end test of the SSTD System achieved several firsts: the first Torpedo Warning System detection of targets from a carrier, the first automatic detection and automatic targeting of an incoming torpedo target from a ship; the first launch of Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo from a carrier and the first end to end Torpedo Warning System and Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo system detection-to-engage at-sea test.

..."What is currently aboard Bush is an engineering development model, or EDM, that is a fully-functioning system, but not the final configuration or production model," DelToro explained. "We’re learning from the Bush to improve the system so we can provide the most robust and cost-effective hard-kill anti-torpedo capability possible."

The Navy currently plans to equip all aircraft carriers and other high-value units with the Surface Ship Torpedo Defense system by 2035.

– NAVSEA –
Being as they already have an EDM functioning, and have conducted relatively rigorous tests on the system, it would seem like it will actually enter service prior to 2035. As the article says, the 2035 date will be when all high-value ships will have finished retrofitting the system. It is also quite possible that that date is a "no later than" date, kind of like the IOC for the ESSM Block II is scheduled to be "no later than" 2020 -- i.e., it could be finished earlier, but the date given is the worst-case-scenario date. I dunno exactly, though -- that's just my postulation.

However, it is good to see that the system is making headway. Until now, the last I had heard about it was from an article from 2006, and I was starting to worry that the program had died off.

Now that the hard-kill torpedo countermeasure is proceeding through testing, that's one American system I'm quite supportive up that I'm glad to see is doing well. Now, if only we could get the damned SLS in service before 2017...
 
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