Submarine news

[John Fedup]

The link: Revealed: Senator Nick Xenophon, the staffer and the national security leak

An interesting read that leaves one wondering about the competition's involvement. I shudder to think about the reaction should something similar ever happen here. On an off topic observation, I also noticed the article about the premiers and PM at odds over climate change. The same situation happened here yesterday at the Canadian premiers and junior meeting. Same stuff, different places.

 

[John Fedup]

Here's a link suggesting an alternative to the Columbia SSBN program.


Build Strategic Fast Attack Submarines | U.S. Naval Institute

 

[Tsavo Lion]

If an SSN is given the SSBN mission, how well will it avoid detection when performing non-deterrence ops? F-35 De JaVu- the naval version of a Swiss Army Knife! IMO, it's better to build a road/rail network &/or deploy road mobile launchers, not in Utah and Nevada, but in AK &/ N. Canada- both are large enough to hide BM trains & road mobile launchers like the USSR had & the RF is now reviving; the Australian deserts could also be used by rail/road mobile BMs as an alternative to SSBNs, saving $Bs, not to mention the economic benefits the new infrastructure'll bring into those areas! The USN could then concentrate on maintaining SSN/SSGN numbers.

 

[gf0012-aust]

If an SSN is given the SSBN mission, how well will it avoid detection when performing non-deterrence ops?

replacing the cannisters doesn't change the mission capability

 

[Tsavo Lion]

If they are going to spend most of the time escorting CSGs, in reconn./intell. collection, deploying/recovering SOFs, launching UAVs/CMs, & laying mines, then there are more chances of them being detected & tracked, thus loosing legacy SSBN stealth.

 

[gf0012-aust]

If they are going to spend most of the time escorting CSGs, in reconn./intell. collection, deploying/recovering SOFs, launching UAVs/CMs, & laying mines, then there are more chances of them being detected & tracked, thus loosing legacy SSBN stealth.

thats not how they operate

 

[colay1]

I'd read that a SSN hull is subjected to much more abuse due to frequent changes in depth as it performs it's various mission. By contrast a SSBN essentially submerges at the start of a patrol, cruises at a relatively constant depth then surfaces to return to home port. So would a strategic SSN-based deterrent would not have the longevity of the bigger boats and be costlier in reality?

 

[oldsig127]

the Australian deserts could also be used by rail/road mobile BMs as an alternative to SSBNs, saving $Bs, not to mention the economic benefits the new infrastructure'll bring into those areas! The USN could then concentrate on maintaining SSN/SSGN numbers.

Good luck suggesting that.

Quite aside from the utter uselessness of infrastructure with no other purpose than hauling someone else's deterrent around between spots in the middle of nowhere, I'm sure that public and political enthusiasm would probably reach a rousing 10%

oldsig

 

[vonnoobie]

Good luck suggesting that.

Quite aside from the utter uselessness of infrastructure with no other purpose than hauling someone else's deterrent around between spots in the middle of nowhere, I'm sure that public and political enthusiasm would probably reach a rousing 10%

oldsig

Agreed. It's tough enough building nuclear power plant's and even tlking about a nuclear waste storage site in Australia before even contemplating nuclear weapons...

Realistically speaking in any war against the US in asia at current in a best case scenario Australia might come under a limited attack (knocking out Pine Gap) but if we start basing nuclear weapons here we make our selves a legitimate nuclear target.. Absolutely zero benefit in Australia putting her self in the cross hair's of nuclear power's.

 

[Redlands18]

could also be used by rail/road mobile BMs as an alternative to SSBNs, saving $Bs, not to mention the economic benefits the new infrastructure'll bring into those areas! The USN could then concentrate on maintaining SSN/SSGN numbers.

$100b a year could get Australia interested, but other than that forget about it.

 

[oldsig127]

$100b a year could get Australia interested, but other than that forget about it.

Interested yes. Overturn the weight of public opinion? Not unless everyone gets their own personal millions will that ever be likely to actually happen. Between common sense (rare) and prejudice (common) it'd still be anathema.

oldsig

 

[Tsavo Lion]

The UK conducted nuclear tests there, & in the worst case, if the target is in the uninhabited desert, that's where the enemy will strike. Also, we been told many times that "the most survivable leg of the nuclear triad is the SSBN force that can stay undetected (even by US forces), thus insuring a 2nd strike capability". IMO, it's a bad idea to put all eggs in 1 basket by combining tactical & strategic missions on the same platform that as a result will have less chances of staying undetected. Even the less affluent Russians, French & British don't think of doing that. But, notwithstanding the above, a better solution is to develop a longer range sub/supersonic nuclear armed SLCM that could be launched from existing &/or future SSN/SSGNs- it will save a lot more $!

 

[Redlands18]

The UK conducted nuclear tests there, & in the worst case, if the target is in the uninhabited desert,$!

Uninhabited desert? The Pine Gap facility is 20km(14mi) from the largest City in central Australia, Alice Springs (pop 28000) so hardly uninhabited. Need to do some reaserch mate. Australia politicaly & society wise is a vastly different country to 1956 and if a British Government was to ask the same today, the answer would be a very big no.

 

[Tsavo Lion]

I meant not all the desert, but the large areas without any civilians for 100s of sq miles. I do have a large National Geographic map of Australia & am aware of Alice Springs.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Can we stay on track please.

geographical - let alone geo-political discussions can go elsewhere

 

[Volkodav]

I meant not all the desert, but the large areas without any civilians for 100s of sq miles. I do have a large National Geographic map of Australia & am aware of Alice Springs.

No just no! Do you have the slightest idea how little infrastructure is out there? Plenty of space to hide but now way to drive there in a TEL. Then how do you defend them? Besides that, why would we base nuclear weapons in Australia when we would have no sovereign right over their use, i.e. we couldn't veto their use, nor could we, even if under attack, order their use. Basically your deployment model is impractical for logistical reasons alone, but insane for strategic ones in that it offers no benefit and great risk for Australia and Australians.

 

[StobieWan]

If an SSN is given the SSBN mission, how well will it avoid detection when performing non-deterrence ops? F-35 De JaVu- the naval version of a Swiss Army Knife! IMO, it's better to build a road/rail network &/or deploy road mobile launchers, not in Utah and Nevada, but in AK &/ N. Canada- both are large enough to hide BM trains & road mobile launchers like the USSR had & the RF is now reviving; the Australian deserts could also be used by rail/road mobile BMs as an alternative to SSBNs, saving $Bs, not to mention the economic benefits the new infrastructure'll bring into those areas! The USN could then concentrate on maintaining SSN/SSGN numbers.

You might want to revisit the debate that surrounded the MX PeaceKeeper and Midgetman programs for background - let's just summarise that parking missiles on platforms that are out of sight and mind works better than a rail network or whatever.

 

[gf0012-aust]

It being only 13 years away and the start of construction still optimistically at least a couple of years away I'd be astonished if we have 12 new subs by then. Maybe we'll match Norway and have four. If all goes well and the production falls swiftly into a two year beat.

oldsig

all 12 won't be in the water by 2030 - they never were going to be. Its a through life build. By the time no 12 gets commissioned the lead boats will be in deep maint

 

[STURM]

Maybe we'll match Norway and have four..

Norway is only expected to sign the contract in 2019 the earliest.

Norway joins forces with Germany to procure new submarines

In the meantime Thailand appears to be close to getting its first sub, from China. In the 1980's the Thai's - wisely - declined an offer for Chinese Romoes and a plan in the early 2000's to get ex-Bundesmarine/Deutsche Marine Type 206s fell through.

Navy secures funds to buy Chinese sub | Bangkok Post: news

In September 2015 HMAS Sheean was in Malaysia and participated in an exercise with an RMN Scorpene. The following year an RMN Scorpene also trained with a French FREMM and its embarked NH90. Interestingly, an order was placed a couple of years ago for a ''Ship Interface Template Set on behalf of the Malaysian Government for use with the U.S. Navy’s Submarine Rescue Diving and Recompression System''. This is probably to support USN subs that visit the Seppangar base; USS Ohio was there in November 2015.

It was announced this month that the Malaysian sub rescue ship [leased from a private company] was certified by the USN as an approved ''commercial vessel of opportunity'' - to be expected I suppose given the sub rescue talks held in the past with the USN and RAN.

U.S. Navy, Royal Malaysian Navy Submarine Leaders Participate in Guam Staff Talks > U.S. Pacific Command > 2015

Frank Cable Hosts First Multinational Sub Talks in Malaysia

 

[vonnoobie]

all 12 won't be in the water by 2030 - they never were going to be. Its a through life build. By the time no 12 gets commissioned the lead boats will be in deep maint

Way I understood it by the time no 12 get's commissioned we were to have started construction on the follow on class (or variant of this class).

Had figured we where aiming for a delivery rate of 1 boat every 18 - 24 months, Not 1 every 10 months (Cant recall where but has been mention that deep maintenance would take place every 10 years).