SU 30 MKI engine woes Malaysia might pull out order of Su 30 mkm

[Aussie Digger]

Oh and adsh, the French can be held to their word as long as they approve of what you intend to do with your aircraft and systems. Look at Argentina in the Falklands. Look at Australian Mirage 111's during Vietnam. The French will only support you as long as they politically approve of the conflict or whatever you are involved in. Otherwise it's a case of best of luck pal, you're on your own...

 

[adsH]

Oh and adsh, the French can be held to their word as long as they approve of what you intend to do with your aircraft and systems. Look at Argentina in the Falklands. Look at Australian Mirage 111's during Vietnam. The French will only support you as long as they politically approve of the conflict or whatever you are involved in. Otherwise it's a case of best of luck pal, you're on your own...

mate that is so true i agree with you i know what the french did to Australians it was a horrible thing to do, i personally think when you buy something like for example my treadmill i expect that its repair service should be caried out when its not working just imagine this i need to get fit and quickly but my treadmill has given up i would expect the seller to arrange repair but he claims that he isn't interested in repairing the equipment becasue hypothetically there are no Consumer protection laws :mad. this is a reality the Australians and Pakistanis happen to have faced and suffered with, in the same way but by differnt seller the Australins were left without repairs on there mirages from france and pakistan on there F-16 by the US and now it seams like both countries are swapping there main supliers to suit there own interests!! so i do think that it is not a good thing if you cut off supply to a nation for going to warr Duhhhh!! the weapons you sold were meant for war so why sell them at all in the first place if you intened to not sell weapons for war. :roll

 

[Aussie Digger]

Agreed. Australia learnt a valuable lesson, with it's experience with France and never bought anything else from them, until the Armed Recon helicopter project recently where Australia acquired the Tiger helicopter. This is only half French (and half German) though. The weapons, (30mm cannon ammunition, 68mm air to ground rockets) will be manufactured in Australia most likely and we will source our Hellfire Missiles from the US. We have cleverly (IMHO) negotiated for Australian Industry to become involved in the manufacture of these aircraft and also the "worldwide" supply chain, so hopefully if we should deploy these aircraft on operations that France doesn't approve of, we wouldn't require any assistance from them anyway... If we had them available during the Gulf War 2 last year, I bet we would have deployed them. I wonder what France would have thought of that?

 

[adsH]

Agreed. Australia learnt a valuable lesson, with it's experience with France and never bought anything else from them, until the Armed Recon helicopter project recently where Australia acquired the Tiger helicopter. This is only half French (and half German) though. The weapons, (30mm cannon ammunition, 68mm air to ground rockets) will be manufactured in Australia most likely and we will source our Hellfire Missiles from the US. We have cleverly (IMHO) negotiated for Australian Industry to become involved in the manufacture of these aircraft and also the "worldwide" supply chain, so hopefully if we should deploy these aircraft on operations that France doesn't approve of, we wouldn't require any assistance from them anyway... If we had them available during the Gulf War 2 last year, I bet we would have deployed them. I wonder what France would have thought of that?

I am sure the old saints would of found it absolutely unacceptable to see there Equipments at war wouldn't you think they ever thought of that when they sold those weapons and took the money!! anyways as i was saying they even tried to block stuff off the Pakistans shoping list even after when they paid for there purchase and shecked there recipts and were ready to leave with there shopping bags. After coup in Pakistan (as i have heard they blocked the Pakistani Sub from that had just got built was ready to sail away they apparently couldn't order the crew to stand down so they blocked the entrance with a cargo ship !! and they even withheld the Mirages that PAF had sent for Upgrades to thales!!.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Mmm. The French make some good kit, but be warned, develop a self sufficient logisitical chain or you may not have the capability when you need it...

 

[gf0012-aust]

Mmm. The French make some good kit, but be warned, develop a self sufficient logisitical chain or you may not have the capability when you need it...

Wholeheartedly agree. I've had to deal with the French on some weapons projects. It is one of the more unattractive projects I have had to work on for numerous reasons. Primarily the main issue is one of trust and consistency. With Americans they play hard, but fair, ditto for the English, but with the French my experience has shown that contracts are rarely worth the paper printed and mutually signed upon.

If I was ever part of any military procurement process, they would be the last ones I would buy hardware from - irrespective of how good it is.

For some countries, their word is their bond. Unfortunately, there are some for whom it is a curiosity at best.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Update:

Malaysia will be getting South African electronic defensive suites for these aircraft. Which is an interesting selection as they are very closely tied into the Israeli's.

I'd be betting that these are Israeli kits licensed in Sth Africa.

 

[adsH]

Update:

Malaysia will be getting South African electronic defensive suites for these aircraft. Which is an interesting selection as they are very closely tied into the Israeli's.

I'd be betting that these are Israeli kits licensed in Sth Africa.

they don't admit it that they need them but they need'em alright !!!! lol

 

[Awang se]

"I think it is more due internal pressure from Malaysian public than the engine problem of SU 30 MKM ( not SU 30 MKI) becoz of which Malaysian govt may drop these birds from her shopping list. Too much cost (US $900 million) for 18 fighters has raised many voices against this deal. "

High cost? Maybe but $900 million will only get you abt 12 super hornets and we don;t just need capable ac, we need them in bigger numbers.

The problem with the public here is with the price tag that Malaysia have to pay and the method of payment. It was said that the price that malaysia have to pay for MKM is 5 mil higher for a unit of aircraft compare to the what India have to pay for MKI while both are almost of the same design and capability. So many (especially the opposition parties) suspect that there is a misuse of funding by the government. The method of payment by using palm oil have raise an issues that such a deal could damn the local palm oil industries.

 

[wzhtg]

"The method of payment by using palm oil have raise an issues that such a deal could damn the local palm oil industries."

I doubt it damns the local palm oil industries, i see it more as opening new markets. Russia last time didn't buy palm oil from us but after they had some to try, they have found them to be quite good and have now started importing palm oil.

 

[Tallgeese]

I think that these problems are exagurated. Sure some problems have been encountered on India's Su-30MKI aircraft but this is not so puzzelling considering how the Su-30MKI's TVN technology have not yet been fully developed & are barely out of testing.

 

[Tallgeese]

Malaysia shouldn't purchase the F/A-18E/F, that would be an outright waste of money, especially from a supplier which has proven as unreliable as the USA. What's the point of purchasing a weapon when you don't have the right to use it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I think that these problems are exagurated. Sure some problems have been encountered on India's Su-30MKI aircraft but this is not so puzzelling considering how the Su-30MKI's TVN technology have not yet been fully developed & are barely out of testing.

Update on the IAF's Su-30s problems.

The Russians have indicated that there are a number of problems:

Clogged fuel lines and engines running unreliably due to excessive loading.

Engines were also unreliable due to operating from poorly prepared airstrips.

That would seem to indicate that FO's are entering the intakes on grade 2 air strips.

The cause of the clogging has been traced to viscosity differences between Russian and Indian jet fuel quality. NPO Saturn developer of the AL-31FP have redesigned the fuel lines.

Unreliability is being resolved through closer co-operation with IAF personnel to prevent FO damage.

The above info has come from Rosoboronexport in a document in the
Asia-Pacific Defence Reporter.

 

[adsH]

I think that these problems are exagurated. Sure some problems have been encountered on India's Su-30MKI aircraft but this is not so puzzelling considering how the Su-30MKI's TVN technology have not yet been fully developed & are barely out of testing.

Update on the IAF's Su-30s problems.

The Russians have indicated that there are a number of problems:

Clogged fuel lines and engines running unreliably due to excessive loading.

Engines were also unreliable due to operating from poorly prepared airstrips.

That would seem to indicate that FO's are entering the intakes on grade 2 air strips.

The cause of the clogging has been traced to viscosity differences between Russian and Indian jet fuel quality. NPO Saturn developer of the AL-31FP have redesigned the fuel lines.

Unreliability is being resolved through closer co-operation with IAF personnel to prevent FO damage.

The above info has come from Rosoboronexport in a document in the
Asia-Pacific Defence Reporter.

i thought Su were desinged for poor quality air strips and the F-16 were designed for high quality air strips, so apperently indian feuls is not good enought for those Su's

 

[gf0012-aust]

It would appear that either the Indian AF is running them on strips that are too rough (as in class 2 strips), the FOD mechanism isn't working etc..

As for the fuel, that is a common issue. Australia as an example has varying degrees of quality in its diesel fuels across the 6 states and 2 territories. It can play havoc with older diesel engines with shonky filters.

If its a viscosity problem, then it means that they either change the fuel lines, change the pump pressure - or change the fuel. Again, not a major issue in the scheme of things.

But, better off finding them when the planes are on the ground, than flying around up in the air.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I am not an aircraft engineer or anything, but the problems stated by gf, seem fairly minor in the scheme of things. If Malaysia were to pull out of this deal, there must be other factors as well. Russia's notoriously poor support for it's products perhaps? And it's interesting to see South African EWSP kits too. I think this is a political stunt and in fact Malaysia has chosen Israeli kits but is merely sourcing them through South Africa for political/religious purposes, not that South Africa doesn't make it's own good kit of course...

 

[Awang se]

I am not an aircraft engineer or anything, but the problems stated by gf, seem fairly minor in the scheme of things. If Malaysia were to pull out of this deal, there must be other factors as well. Russia's notoriously poor support for it's products perhaps? And it's interesting to see South African EWSP kits too. I think this is a political stunt and in fact Malaysia has chosen Israeli kits but is merely sourcing them through South Africa for political/religious purposes, not that South Africa doesn't make it's own good kit of course...

I've been suspecting this. I notice several equipments that is identical to the Israeli made equipment in the MKI, though they were mark as produce by France, India or Russia.

 

[adsH]

I know i am going to get shouted at from alot of members here but you have to bare with me and correct me where i go wrong!! i know F-16 and SU-30 are form a different class but i just had a question need to talk it out of my head!!

SU30 MKI is customized for IAF , System integration for its avionics must of been done by IAF/Aeronautical Company Engineers!! i think the SU-30 MKI has Israeli AVIonics and radars!! i am guessing the Avionics package sold to the IAF by Israel would not be As good as the ones that they have recently installed on the Israeli F-16I, it makes no logical sense to offer the world better EW suite and avionics better then yours!!.
And the israelis admit the UAE F-16u block 60 are alot more Advance then there F-16I Basic block 40 or 50 i think but it is widely known that the israelis are better quality pilots then the rest of the Arab world pilots!! and that they always install there own EW suite and they make some undisclosed mods on there F-16, But the fact is that the F-16 U is Block 60 with the best SYStems THE US HAS to Offer to any one, even its self, So tell me this now How many here can argue that the SU-30 MKI are better than F-16 Block 60, i am only going to say: i think the Block 60 are better. now could some one tell me what they think i would seriously appreciate comments !!!!!!!

 

[amit21mech]

>>> SU30 MKI is customized for IAF , System integration for its avionics must of been done by IAF/Aeronautical Company Engineers!! i think the SU-30 MKI has Israeli AVIonics and radars!! i am guessing the Avionics package sold to the IAF by Israel would not be As good as the ones that they have recently installed on the Israeli F-16I, it makes no logical sense to offer the world better EW suite and avionics better then yours!!. <<<

Your answer is in your question itself. How can you say that Israeli haven't provided the same gizmo to the Indians as they are using? This is your wild perception nothing else.

 

[adsH]

>>> SU30 MKI is customized for IAF , System integration for its avionics must of been done by IAF/Aeronautical Company Engineers!! i think the SU-30 MKI has Israeli AVIonics and radars!! i am guessing the Avionics package sold to the IAF by Israel would not be As good as the ones that they have recently installed on the Israeli F-16I, it makes no logical sense to offer the world better EW suite and avionics better then yours!!. <<<

Your answer is in your question itself. How can you say that Israeli haven't provided the same gizmo to the Indians as they are using? This is your wild perception nothing else.

Ease down a notch mate i am not threatening any one here i am just saying something
Not even the US knows what's customized in the Israeli F-16 and there EW suite are always kept very secret !! Israelis are not the types who would trust any one they are way too clever they know where to put there money and i do admire them for there thinking its very unique!!!

It not logical for a nation who takes its Security to the upmost concern, to rely on tech that is floating around the world!!!!