South Africa to possibly purchase LPH

[Sea Toby]

Its a long way from a Newport to the new Canberra class LHDs. Australia has done very well. Here is a link that shows the difference between a Canberra and a Aussie Newport. Please scroll down a bit.

The Aussie's converted their LSTs into LPAs. The rest of the navies used the Newports as is, as LSTs. I believe the Aussies spent up to $400 million to convert them. Still that is much cheaper than buying two large LHDs for $3 billion.

Of course, the Canberra class LHDs carry more personnel and more men, along with more helicopters. And possibly, the Aussies in the future will acquire some F-35Bs, using this class to somehow replace the old Melbourne and Sydney aircraft carriers. At the very least they could see American marine F-35s flying off them.

I think a LHD would be a good investment for South Africa, whether German, French, Spanish, or Italian. I also like the South Korean and Japanese ships too. Like I said New Zealand had to pick from 21 options, I am sure South Africa will have to choose one of many likewise. One thing is for certain, there are many shipyards looking for new orders.

 

[swerve]

... When I say interesting, I am astonished at the ingenuity of many of these designs.....

Yes. The German design previously linked to is fascinating, as is the Danish Absalon multi-role ship, and the Indonesian (S. Korean built) Makassar-class LPD is also interesting. More of a transport with a dock than a real amphibious assault ship, but very cheap indeed, & built with impressive speed. Months, not years. I think it'd be very useful for countries on tight budgets, wanting a transport not tied to ports, which can also do amphibious operations. I can imagine a few Latin American countries being interested.

 

[kato]

The Newport LSTs went to:

Spain (2) - tbr by (1) BPE
Australia (2) - tbr by (2) BPE

Taiwan (2) - no replacement plan, could be in the market for bigger ships
Mexico (2) - no replacement plan, could be in the market for bigger ships
Brazil (1) - no replacement plan, could be in the market for bigger ships

Morocco (1) - no replacement plan, part of LST concept
Chile (1) - no replacement plan, part of LST concept
Malaysia (1) - no replacement plan, part of LST concept

Morocco, Malaysia and Chile all run their Newports as "lead" of a flotilla with other, smaller LSM/LST (four for Morocco, two for the others).

 

[swerve]

The Newport LSTs went to:

Spain (2) - tbr by (1) BPE
Australia (2) - tbr by (2) BPE

Taiwan (2) - no replacement plan, could be in the market for bigger ships
Mexico (2) - no replacement plan, could be in the market for bigger ships
Brazil (1) - no replacement plan, could be in the market for bigger ships

Morocco (1) - no replacement plan, part of LST concept
Chile (1) - no replacement plan, part of LST concept
Malaysia (1) - no replacement plan, part of LST concept

Morocco, Malaysia and Chile all run their Newports as "lead" of a flotilla with other, smaller LSM/LST (four for Morocco, two for the others).

Taiwan could build her own amphibious ships.

Mexico might be a market for ex-US LPDs, or the cheaper end of the new LPD market.

Chile has a stated requirement for an LPD or similar ship, but public statements suggest that budgetary restrictions will mean a smallish, cheapish, ship. Maybe a low-end Enforcer.

IIRC Ecuador, Peru, Vietnam & the Philippines operate even older, smaller ex-USN LSM/LST, mostly as transports. Might be in the market (funds permitting) for Makassar-class or similar (maybe smaller) ships.

 

[harryriedl]

The Newport LSTs went to:

Spain (2) - tbr by (1) BPE
Australia (2) - tbr by (2) BPE

Taiwan (2) - no replacement plan, could be in the market for bigger ships
Mexico (2) - no replacement plan, could be in the market for bigger ships
Brazil (1) - no replacement plan, could be in the market for bigger ships

Morocco (1) - no replacement plan, part of LST concept
Chile (1) - no replacement plan, part of LST concept
Malaysia (1) - no replacement plan, part of LST concept

Morocco, Malaysia and Chile all run their Newports as "lead" of a flotilla with other, smaller LSM/LST (four for Morocco, two for the others).

has the small Greek LST been exported anywhere as image they'd have a market willing to replace the old USN type with something similar

 

[kato]

has the small Greek LST been exported anywhere as image they'd have a market willing to replace the old USN type with something similar

No exports. Customers only need to look at the problems for the Greek units to shy away probably. Elefsis, shipyard building them stopped the outfitting process due to a financial crisis, which led to times of five to nine years between launch and commissioning for the first three units.

The electronics stuffed into them aren't all that great either - radars and weapons control are fascinatingly completely identical to the outfit of Tiger class FACs transferred from Germany around the same time. I'd suspect they put the spare parts they got with those to good use.

 

[harryriedl]

No exports. Customers only need to look at the problems for the Greek units to shy away probably. Elefsis, shipyard building them stopped the outfitting process due to a financial crisis, which led to times of five to nine years between launch and commissioning for the first three units.

The electronics stuffed into them aren't all that great either - radars and weapons control are fascinatingly completely identical to the outfit of Tiger class FACs transferred from Germany around the same time. I'd suspect they put the spare parts they got with those to good use.

ow i didn't know that they were plagued with problems

 

[Sea Toby]

With the Austins LPDs being decommissioned in the next few years, I expect another wave of used ships being bought. India has already done so, and I would not be surprised if Mexico, Chile, Peru, and Brazil followed. I wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan followed India. If South Africa wanted to wait before spending much more for a new ship, even South Africa may be interested in one for a short learning experience.

Then again, South Africa has the resources to buy new amphibious ships, unlike other nations. I do highly recommend they buy a ship similar to the French Mistral class LHD. The Mistrals seem to be a good fit for South Africa.

 

[contedicavour]

With the Austins LPDs being decommissioned in the next few years, I expect another wave of used ships being bought. India has already done so, and I would not be surprised if Mexico, Chile, Peru, and Brazil followed. I wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan followed India. If South Africa wanted to wait before spending much more for a new ship, even South Africa may be interested in one for a short learning experience.

Then again, South Africa has the resources to buy new amphibious ships, unlike other nations. I do highly recommend they buy a ship similar to the French Mistral class LHD. The Mistrals seem to be a good fit for South Africa.

The Austin LPDs are much bigger than the Newport. Operating a LPD the size of the Austin requires almost a 1000 trained sailors... I don't see SA, Peru or Chile finding the personnel. Mexico has enough personnel though.

cheers

 

[swerve]

The Austin LPDs are much bigger than the Newport. Operating a LPD the size of the Austin requires almost a 1000 trained sailors... I don't see SA, Peru or Chile finding the personnel. Mexico has enough personnel though.

cheers

No, it doesn't require 1000 trained sailors to operate an LPD that size. It requires 1000 trained sailors to operate an Austin. Modern European LPDs of the same size have much smaller crews. They're also more fuel-efficient & need much less maintenance. But they cost more to buy than 40 year old ships that would otherwise be scrapped.

 

[contedicavour]

No, it doesn't require 1000 trained sailors to operate an LPD that size. It requires 1000 trained sailors to operate an Austin. Modern European LPDs of the same size have much smaller crews. They're also more fuel-efficient & need much less maintenance. But they cost more to buy than 40 year old ships that would otherwise be scrapped.

Well yes exactly ... and that's why navies such as Peru, Chile or South africa cannot take on an Austin class LPD OR a modern LPD. Even if sailors don't cost a lot salary-wise in countries such as Peru, keeping 1000 stuck on a single ship is not making sense.

cheers

 

[swerve]

Well yes exactly ... and that's why navies such as Peru, Chile or South africa cannot take on an Austin class LPD OR a modern LPD. ...

Not quite true. Some of these navies can't afford to buy a new, full-spec LPD, or operate an old, high-maintenance LPD. But they can probably afford a new low-spec LPD, such as Indonesias Korean-built Makassar class ships. About 11000 tons (other sizes available), cost about what India paid for refitting Trenton, fuel-efficient low-maintenance diesels, can be operated by 100 crew. Built to commercial standards.

S. Africa can afford mid-spec LHDs, such as TKMS has offered (linked to earlier in the thread).

 

[kato]

It requires 1000 trained sailors to operate an Austin.

An Austin has a crew of 420, sans the air component.

The main difference would be in the complexity of machinery (steam engines!) and the degree of automatisation, which is pretty low in US 60s LPDs.

Build the same nowadays with CODAG and higher automatization for cargo handling, and you could probably design it with less than 250 men crew.

Although in addition to that you'd also want a far better equipped medical ward (... with more than 12 beds), side loading/ramp capability, modern electronics (...computers), a modern helicopter handling system (and a hangar - no, that refitted telescoping thing doesn't count!) and so on.

Basically, refitting one to modern demands will get you wondering if you can't get a new LPD for the same price.

 

[swerve]

An Austin has a crew of 420, sans the air component.

The main difference would be in the complexity of machinery (steam engines!) and the degree of automatisation, which is pretty low in US 60s LPDs.

Build the same nowadays with CODAG and higher automatization for cargo handling, and you could probably design it with less than 250 men crew.....

Mistral is 25% bigger and has a crew of 160. Juan Carlos 1 is 70% bigger than an Austin with a crew of 247. The somewhat simpler Bay-class LSDs are the same size as Austin, with a crew of 59. They're all diesel-electric, which seems to be pretty much standard on such ships nowadays.

A new Austin should have no more than 150 ship crew. Johan de Witt has 147, & is probably the nearest thing to an Austin class among new LPDs. Almost exactly the same size. Diesel-electric drive, again. http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/lpd.htm

 

[kato]

A new Austin should have no more than 150 ship crew.

Sure, but not a simply refurbished one with new machinery and stuff.

 

[swerve]

Sure, but not a simply refurbished one with new machinery and stuff.

No, you're right. That would need a lot more than de Witt.

 

[Sea Toby]

Naval crews to operate an Austin is about 400 or so, which can carry over 700 Marines or soldiers. Lets keep these facts straight. The ships aren't that big. Of course newer ships have more automation. I hope no one considers the ships new, hey, they are not even cream puffs.

I believe Brazil can find the manpower, and possibly Peru if they were willing to discard their light cruisers. But I will agree, not every nation has the crews to operate an old LPD, but India does.

Most countries would not deploy their LPDs, leaving them at anchor until they were ready to exercise or use them. Keep in mind the US Navy and Marines do deploy them throughout the world, in six months intervals in a rotation policy of three.

 

[AegisFC]

A good number of that crew is for US style damage control and redundancy in crew members.

 

[kato]

Well, this whole spinoff started with:

With the Austins LPDs being decommissioned in the next few years, I expect another wave of used ships being bought.

The Austins themselves were commissioned in 1965 to 1971, with six decomissioned in 2005-2007 and six still active.

Out of the six yet decommissioned, two are in storage/mothballed, two waiting to be scrapped, one sold (Trenton, one of the last of the bunch), and one sunk.
40-year-old ships simply don't sell all that well.

Unless India buys a couple more (read: Nashville) and refurbishes them, i doubt there's much future life in them. Thailand, Indonesia or Malaysia maybe, with the same purpose of using them primarily in disaster coordination/logistics efforts.

 

[Sea Toby]

Most likely you are correct. The only reason why this class of ships are becoming available is the fact the US Navy intends to build 12 San Antonio class LPDs in the near future whose price are over a billion dollars. Nine of the twelve have been named, with three more to come. Some have already been commissioned and are in service. The San Antonio's are as large as the French Mistral class of LHDs.
(LPD-17) San Antonio,
(LPD-18) New Orleans,
(LPD-19) Mesa Verde,
(LPD-20) Green Bay,
(LPD-21) New York,
(LPD-22) San Diego,
(LPD-23) Anchorage,
(LPD-24) Arlington,
(LPD-25) Somerset

I was under the impression India bought the Trenton mainly because their large navy missed this type of ship during the Indian Ocean earthquake and tsummai. Having such a ship comes in very handy during humanitarian missions. I would think as soon as their aircraft carrier programs bear fruit, the Indian navy will either build a LHD or LPD type. This buy of the Trenton is only for a short term fix.

I'll repeat, A SHORT TERM FIX.