Singapore to acquire Leopard 2A4s

Grand Danois

Entertainer
oskarm & weasel1962,
Me and my friends are doing a project on reviewing our new tank PT-91M. Could you guys help us out for the information? I know it's off topic, but I cant find a pm service here. Should I leave down my email?:)
The PM service is activated when you have posted 50 posts. ;)
 

Ramjetmissile

New Member
i thought singapore is a technologically orientated armed force.they are alway emphasizing on more technology less manpower concept.its obvious that the presence of an auto reloader mechanism will cut back manpower used to operate this war machine.

What are the benefits with/without this mechanism?
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
i thought singapore is a technologically orientated armed force.they are alway emphasizing on more technology less manpower concept.its obvious that the presence of an auto reloader mechanism will cut back manpower used to operate this war machine.

What are the benefits with/without this mechanism?
The benefit would be 1 less crew member, given the design in size with Russian tanks I can see why they went with one, and they are still cramped.

Without the auto loader you have a extra crewman for security, extra set of eyes on the battlefield. Plus they can load the maingun just as fast if not faster than a auto loader, thus cutting down on engagement times.

If your auto loader jams or misaligns you could be in trouble on the battlefield
Auto loader tanks carry less ammunition ready for fire.
 

gatot

New Member
Heavy Tanks such as Abram M1, Leapord2 and Challenger MBT are useless in SE Asia. How do expect these heavy monster to manoever in paddy fields ? It would be more effective to have foot soldier carrying folding bike and anti tank missile rather than spending millions on these MBTs.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Heavy Tanks such as Abram M1, Leapord2 and Challenger MBT are useless in SE Asia. How do expect these heavy monster to manoever in paddy fields ? It would be more effective to have foot soldier carrying folding bike and anti tank missile rather than spending millions on these MBTs.
Exactly the same way that 50ton Centurion tanks DID in Vietnam. Maneuverability is about ground pressure, not overall weight. Tracked vehicles exert significantly LESS ground pressure than wheeled vehicles and despite their weight are able to traverse ground that a wheeled vehicle will become bogged in VERY quickly...

If it were SO effective why are Malaysia, Singapore and Australia all buying new generation tanks (PT-91, Leo2, M1A1's)? The answer is that they have a little bit better understanding of operating armour than most and they no EXACTLY where the vehicles can and cannot be operated.

Cheers

AD
 

Ramjetmissile

New Member
I realised that there are still many who have this mentality.55+ tonner is an inappropriate war machine in S.E.A region. Many failed to see the post WW2 development and changed.

Thanks eckherl! just saw a video clip on M1A2 and it told me why most western armoured tank preferred the conventional way instead of an auto reloader. The loader is the junior member of the 4 man crew he is the loader as well as a machine gunner.:)
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Exactly the same way that 50ton Centurion tanks DID in Vietnam. Maneuverability is about ground pressure, not overall weight. Tracked vehicles exert significantly LESS ground pressure than wheeled vehicles and despite their weight are able to traverse ground that a wheeled vehicle will become bogged in VERY quickly...

If it were SO effective why are Malaysia, Singapore and Australia all buying new generation tanks (PT-91, Leo2, M1A1's)? The answer is that they have a little bit better understanding of operating armour than most and they no EXACTLY where the vehicles can and cannot be operated.

Cheers

AD
Exactly - with all the soft areas that are around, these countries will be able to maximize there firepower in channeled areas on the battlefied, choke points can be very bad for the bad guy`s.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
I realised that there are still many who have this mentality.55+ tonner is an inappropriate war machine in S.E.A region. Many failed to see the post WW2 development and changed.
No doubt you KNOW this from your own extensive armoured vehicle experience eh?

Tell me have you ever EVEN ridden in a tracked armoured vehicle, let alone commanded one?

Tell you what champion. Why don't you read up on the battle of Binh Ba if you think 50+ ton can't fight in SE Asian jungle environments.

You can read up about it here:

http://www.5rar.asn.au/binh_ba.htm

These even some photo's of the Centurion tanks crossing rice paddies , something which someone mentioned earlier as being "impossible" in SE Asia.... :nutkick
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ya beat me to it AD! I have operated with Leo1,s on K92, in the build up NOV92, and the Leo,s operated in mud and boggy conditions better than any other veh on that ex. Have you ever seen a tracked vehicle like a bulldozer clearing a rainforest on the news...you must have, and if they can clear a rainforest area like in the Amazon, what makes you think a Tank is out of place in the J?
 

qwerty223

New Member
These even some photo's of the Centurion tanks crossing rice paddies , something which someone mentioned earlier as being "impossible" in SE Asia....
No going to force an argument here. Just personal question about the topic.

50ton tank did well Vietnam I would say thanks to lack of counter weapon and another reason, my observation: weird that heavy tank never been tested on tropical landscape. Wheel armored vehicle always weight less than a half of a similar size tank, and good example like Hummer shows remarkable result in country-cross performance. I don't know how well the pressure ratio theory apply on track vehicle but from my personal knowledge, I had been to most of the SEA countries and Australia. Their terrain are definitely differs from M'sia, Indo and Singapore(actually don't really seen non urban area of SG). M'sia and Indo have a more softer soil comparing to northern members of SEA like Thailand. Is not the kind of muddy as Europe is, but is easily discompose when giving high pressure especially after a rain.

As a Malaysian living near our biggest port, The West Port. Route collapse due to heavy truck especially in the monsoon season. Here, a 5ton excavator so often to find himself in trouble. 60ton tank? I don't think the route will last for them while off the route just make it worse, even in dry season.

Therefore deployment for heavy vehicle is limited in southern SEA countries. Tank may be good in cleaning forest, while for their counter party,flame the forest may not able to kill tank crews but for sure enough to toast it's engine, if not, to secure the forest for weeks. Army with less options will lead themselves in danger

In other hand, those who took paddy field as an obstacles for tanks obviously don't know how a paddy field looks like or what is a paddy field. Tank can make it through, of course there are difficulty compare to flat terrain with hills and other "kid stuff". Paddy fields are the only in common. Terrain condition is significantly difference.If you know SEA well, in the picture you shown us shows that Vietnam has commonly covered with black/dark soil while in Malaysia same situation, you will see more red colored terrain.

BTW, none of your pictures shows paddy field with armor vehicle :unknown

following pictures are:
Malaysia-Vietnam-Malaysia-Malaysia Soil Moisture Distribution Map
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As a Malaysian living near our biggest port, The West Port. Route collapse due to heavy truck especially in the monsoon season. Here, a 5ton excavator so often to find himself in trouble. 60ton tank? I don't think the route will last for them while off the route just make it worse, even in dry season.

Therefore deployment for heavy vehicle is limited in southern SEA countries. Tank may be good in cleaning forest, while for their counter party,flame the forest may not able to kill tank crews but for sure enough to toast it's engine, if not, to secure the forest for weeks. Army with less options will lead themselves in danger
i think the weakness in the argument lies in employment. tanks wouldn't be using a jungle route as a high volume thoroughfare - it would be used as a one time transit.

I've been through malaysia in logging areas - and none of that country has ever struck me as impassable.

i remember speaking to malaysia spec forces personnel in the mid 80's, when malaysia still had a communist insurgency problem around johore (we were subject to a curfew at night as the communists were still active - esp around mersing) - i distinctly remember a local commander musing that they would love to get access to centurions so that they could chase and apply direct fire against the communist terrorists - artillery and howitzers were regarded as useless - whereas direct LOS fire was wanted,

they definitely wanted tanks for hot pursuit direct fire actions so as to support specops actions.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
No going to force an argument here. Just personal question about the topic.

50ton tank did well Vietnam I would say thanks to lack of counter weapon and another reason, my observation: weird that heavy tank never been tested on tropical landscape. Wheel armored vehicle always weight less than a half of a similar size tank, and good example like Hummer shows remarkable result in country-cross performance. I don't know how well the pressure ratio theory apply on track vehicle but from my personal knowledge, I had been to most of the SEA countries and Australia. Their terrain are definitely differs from M'sia, Indo and Singapore(actually don't really seen non urban area of SG). M'sia and Indo have a more softer soil comparing to northern members of SEA like Thailand. Is not the kind of muddy as Europe is, but is easily discompose when giving high pressure especially after a rain.

As a Malaysian living near our biggest port, The West Port. Route collapse due to heavy truck especially in the monsoon season. Here, a 5ton excavator so often to find himself in trouble. 60ton tank? I don't think the route will last for them while off the route just make it worse, even in dry season.

Therefore deployment for heavy vehicle is limited in southern SEA countries. Tank may be good in cleaning forest, while for their counter party,flame the forest may not able to kill tank crews but for sure enough to toast it's engine, if not, to secure the forest for weeks. Army with less options will lead themselves in danger

In other hand, those who took paddy field as an obstacles for tanks obviously don't know how a paddy field looks like or what is a paddy field. Tank can make it through, of course there are difficulty compare to flat terrain with hills and other "kid stuff". Paddy fields are the only in common. Terrain condition is significantly difference.If you know SEA well, in the picture you shown us shows that Vietnam has commonly covered with black/dark soil while in Malaysia same situation, you will see more red colored terrain.

BTW, none of your pictures shows paddy field with armor vehicle :unknown

following pictures are:
Malaysia-Vietnam-Malaysia-Malaysia Soil Moisture Distribution Map
You are correct in the fact that getting a tank mired in a rice paddy is not a good thing, I have personally done this in South Korea on two sererate occasions, once with a M60A3 and another time with a M1, it took two M88 recovery vehicles to get me out. Winter time was not a problem due to the fact that the ground would freeze, but even then you worried about breaking torsion bars due to the different dike levels. Rice paddies can actually work in favor of the Army that is in a defensive posture due to the fact that a rice paddy is a natural terrian obstruction, the enemy will have to go around if they have vehicles. The U.S Army and the Aussie`s learned how to operate tanks in this environment by using the trail and road systems that connect the rice paddies to each other. just a another tid bit of information for you guy`s, if North Korea ever attacks South Korea it will be in the winter time so that they can move their armor forces in South Korea because everthing will be frozen. to this day ROK forces still fire artillery rounds into the Imgin river to keep it from freezing to a point that you can move large scale forces across it.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
No going to force an argument here. Just personal question about the topic.

50ton tank did well Vietnam I would say thanks to lack of counter weapon and another reason, my observation: weird that heavy tank never been tested on tropical landscape. Wheel armored vehicle always weight less than a half of a similar size tank, and good example like Hummer shows remarkable result in country-cross performance. I don't know how well the pressure ratio theory apply on track vehicle but from my personal knowledge, I had been to most of the SEA countries and Australia. Their terrain are definitely differs from M'sia, Indo and Singapore(actually don't really seen non urban area of SG). M'sia and Indo have a more softer soil comparing to northern members of SEA like Thailand. Is not the kind of muddy as Europe is, but is easily discompose when giving high pressure especially after a rain.
Nothing is ever perfect, I am the FIRST to admit that. I've had an M113 bogged at Shoalwater Bay in Queensland (mostly "Savannah" type grasslands). Cost me a carton of Crown Lagers (a premium beer in Australia) for the boys when we got back to Barracks as well.

The point I was addressing was the perception based on vehicle mass alone that a heavy tank cannot operate within a Jungle environment and SE Asia in particular. I think there is also (to a lesser degree) an idea that EVERYONE within an Army is a Neanderthal and only wants tanks simply because they're "shiny" but have no real idea how to employ said capability

Fact is both the US and Australia have employed heavy armour in SE Asia on operations, successfully. Both Countries, plus Singapore and Malaysia have also done so on exercises and the capability is well known, as are the limitations, by the operators of the particular capability.

That ALL these Countries are acquiring heavily armoured tanks of differing varieties, should be enough in of itself to show that perhaps they "might" just know something that some others don't???
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
tank design, terrain and personnel

There are a few misconceptions about tanks, their design and their use which is often misused to support one view or another. One such misuse is the "we used tanks in Vietnam" argument.

A tank is just a vehicle. It can go a lot of places a truck can. Tanks have been used in the mountains, and in the jungle, in deserts and in the arctic. Anyone who has seen the state of the soil in spring or autumn in Ukraine would know that any thank that can go through that, can go anywhere. On the other hand in the summer some soils in the south-east of Ukraine become concrete-like, and can destroy tracks much faster then ‘normal’ soils in (for example) Germany.

The big problem with tanks used on water saturated soils is not how heavy they are (as already pointed out), but how many there are, and how fast they are moving. The tanks used in Vietnam were rarely if ever used in numbers larger then a company, and they rarely moved at speeds faster then 25km/h because more tanks then that moving faster would just tear up an unimproved road surface, which is how tanks get to their tactical area, to make it impossible for use by any other vehicles, including lighter AFVs. That is the reason NATO tanks wear rubber shoes, and Soviet Union build all those reinforced roads heading west. For a developing country to use Western tanks in the same way, they would need to invest in significant road improvement projects in likely areas of operation.

It’s interesting that the Soviet Union supplied Vietnam with T-55s well before the first M-48 arrived in Vietnam, so it seems they had no issues with using tanks in Vietnam. However their lighter tanks are able to move faster over unimproved road surfaces even without rubber feet by using wider tracks since the time of the T-34 design.
By the way to move from rice paddy to rice paddy the tank needs to go over the separating dyke, and that can expose its underbelly, never mind that its hard work for the engine when there is not much of a grip to push the tank over (except in wet season when the things just disintegrate and the tracks fill with the muck).

Besides this, the terrain in SE Asia is varied. It’s not all rice paddies, and it’s not all jungle as some like to stereotype. Neither is Europe all 'tank country', whatever that is.
This is the argument behind design of Soviet tanks. Having a really long range gun is great, but average engagement distances don't warrant anything over 2500m at most, and in SE Asia this would be significantly more reduced. The issue in tank design is not only a balance of speed, armour and gun (penetration over range), but also ACQUISITION and above all the CREW. As I was reminded by a tanker, “if you can’t see ‘em, you can’t hit ‘em”.

There are other differences in design approach to Soviet tanks. One is that small is good so far as acquisition is concerned. Given the ambient terrain undulation anywhere, the Soviet design is less likely to present a viable target to ground units then a larger West European tank. For some comparisons this is as much as a 30% reduction.
The small size of the fighting compartment is not a good argument either. In the East and West tank crews fought in Pz IIIS/IVs, T-34s and Shermans for years, even without air conditioners. Sure it’s nice to have all the comforts, but even air conditioner units break down. Is the crew going to just get out and walk because they can't keep the interior cool? And let’s not forget those tanks had four crewmen in there (not counting the driver).

Reduction of a crewman in the tank is a necessity of modern tanking also. The complexity of the modern tank (beginning in the 60s) is significantly greater then it was in the WW2-1950s generation of tanks, and requires more service personnel. While people argue that the extra crewman is not a hindrance/is a benefit, the M1 (or any West European tank for that instance) requires two service personnel (in addition to the crew) to keep the single vehicle operational (on average). This means that the actual number of M1 crew is 6 not 4. The Soviet designers faced same personnel problems from the T-64 design onwards and most developing countries do also, particularly the larger forces like China and India. In a fleet of 4000 vehicles, this reduces training by six battalions! Now consider Soviet fleet of 27,000. To maintain tank fleets one need to employ not just the tank crews, but support staff also. For Australia's 236 crew of the 59 M1s, the Army also needs 118 electronics and 118 mechanical trades as a minimum.

Singapore also has this problem because it has an economy running at high efficiency (so there is very little spare labour force for recruiting, as is in Australia), and I suspect that the purchase of 30 'spare' Leo2s is not because they like to have 30 spare tanks sitting around, but because they know that realistically they have no hope in hell of finding crews and support staff to maintain them operationally. Australians are just more realistic IMHO. There is another thread on this, but I would suggest that recruiting 2,600 extra service personnel will not produce 500 tankers (and I include armour service personnel in the term because without them the units just don’t function).

This is the real reason Soviet tank designs have been popular with developing countries where personnel with appropriate education are hard to find. Besides that, they are just cheaper to produce even in cost of metal alone by retaining lesser surface and volume thanks to innovative engineering. That is also part of tanking.

Cheers
 
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