Singapore to acquire Leopard 2A4s

[Aussie Digger]

I thought australia should of gone with leopard II instead of Abrams.
Newer tanks with less hours on them instead of 4th hand early builds??

We didn't.

We got ex- US Army M1A1's that spent the majority of their lives in storage in Germany, re-built from the ground up and improved with many features that are just being introduced onto US tanks now.

We got extremely advanced, practically brand new tanks at a reasonable price.

Leo II was considered by the Australian Army along with Challenger II and both were rejected in favour of the Abrams.

Seems ADF can't win.

When it doesn't run a full comparison (ie: JSF) it attracts criticism.

When it DOES, it's accused of picking the wrong platform.

No wonder they don't bother responding very often...

 

[Waylander]

I just can agree that Australia choose the right tank.

While the Aussie M1A1 AIM might slightly lacks behind the Leopard 2A6EX in overall performance it nevertheless fits better.
A brand new Leopard IIA6EX with all gimmicks wouldn't have been cheaper (Maybe to operate but not to purchase) while a cheap surplus Leopard IIA4 wouldn't have matched the AIM in performance.
And it is much more possible that Aussie troops join US battlegroups so logistics are much easier and the US could also give Aussie tankmen some of their tanks if needed.

 

[Jezza]

We didn't.

We got ex- US Army M1A1's that spent the majority of their lives in storage in Germany, re-built from the ground up and improved with many features that are just being introduced onto US tanks now.

We got extremely advanced, practically brand new tanks at a reasonable price.

Leo II was considered by the Australian Army along with Challenger II and both were rejected in favour of the Abrams.

Seems ADF can't win.

When it doesn't run a full comparison (ie: JSF) it attracts criticism.

When it DOES, it's accused of picking the wrong platform.

No wonder they don't bother responding very often...

Hard day.
It was just a question?
If they were so reasonable in price it would of been better to get more
abrams then. Hopefully down the track maybe.

 

[nero]

LAHAT not for outsiders

148 a very huge numbers , i'll heard some ppl said the tanks will be equip with
LAHAT is it true or just rumor ?

LAHAT is reserved for israel only, it is just a rumour that singapore will be using lahat


.

 

[kotay]

LAHAT is reserved for israel only

From Defense Update

IAI has recently completed a successful series of test firing on the Arjun tank in India, and is negotiating local production if a planned procurement of Lahat for the entire Arjun fleet planned for the Indian Armor will materialize.

And Defense Update again ...

The US Army and TRW are planning to test an armed version of the IA/TRW Hunter UAV system, equipped with the IAI/MBT Lahat laser guided missile

and Rheinmetall is also getting into the act ...

IAI/MBT Missiles Division and Rheinmetall Defence have joined forces to offer an upgrade kit for Leopard 1/2 main battle tanks featuring a gun-launched laser homing weapon system (Lahat)

But you're certainly right about LAHAT and Singapore being only a rumour.

 

[eckherl]

LAHAT is reserved for israel only, it is just a rumour that singapore will be using lahat


.

Who stated that - other countries have a interest in this round and Isreal seems very eager to share.

 

[Waylander]

And as kotay already stated it has been tested and is ready for implemention into Leopard II and other systems if the customer wants it.

BTW,
Nero why do you post in such a strange way?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hard day.
It was just a question?
If they were so reasonable in price it would of been better to get more
abrams then. Hopefully down the track maybe.

Sorry I didn't mean to "jump down your throat" personally, but I was attempting to address the fact that there's a large group of people out there who are under the impression Army chose Abrams, just because we have a close relationship with America. They ignore the full comparision Army conducted on the 3 leading Western MBT's...

These people also seem to think Army only bought a new tank because it was allowed to, not because proper experimentation and wargaming had been conducted and Army is actually able to JUSTIFY it's decision.

Army has spent $530m so far to gain a full capability, including low-loader trucks, refuelling trucks, M88A2 Hercules recovery vehicles, a large ammunition package etc.

To gain more tanks, more money needs to be spent. At present Army is rightfully focussed on gaining an operational capability with what it has, as well as introducing ALL the other new capabilities it is planning (Tiger, M113AS3/4, TUAV's, self propelled artillery, 2 new infantry battalions etc).

Army may acquire more M1A1's one day. It's just not a priority to obtain more just yet.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[Waylander]

What else could it be than the best in the world...?

But as I said the price is not too high. The Aussies wouldn't have got any other modern western tank for a cheaper price.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[Aussie Digger]

Finally got round to reading the defense update.

http://www.defence.gov.au/ans/2007/pdf/Defence_update.pdf

Quote -
"Fifty–nine M1A1 Abrams tanks – the best in the world – are entering Army service at a cost of around $500 million."

That's the politicians point of view. I think it's VERY debatable that Australia's M1A1 are NOT the "best" tanks in the world, however they ARE very good and definitely amongst the best in the world, which should be saying enough...

 

[Red]

The problem with Singapore and NZ is that due to its size, it can't normally justify whole ground units deploying in international missions.

You are probably right there. As opposed to bigger countries who send smaller contigents, it would be extremely uncomfortable for Singapore to send large contigents of troops and justify that internally amongst Singaporeans in general. Not that we could not. Operation Flying Eagle saw close to 2000 troops being deployed to Indonesia on a massive humanitarian mission in a very very short time. Also, lest it comes to national defence which is more apparent, it would be hard for Singaporeans to link the lives of young men to wars in other continents/countries and the loses thereafter at this stage of the country`s evolution.

But I also think the larger issue is the reaction by the muslim majority in SEA and large minority in Singapore given that they would most likely be deployed in Muslim dominated war-torn areas. It is actually very sensitive in the sense that the Singapore government does not want to give any room of support for Muslim extremist elements within Singapore. Or give any ammunition to extremists within SEA to use Singapore(US`s stooge/Israel of the East, etc) as a rallying call for war.

 

[kato]

As opposed to bigger countries who send smaller contigents

Luxembourg is about a sixth the size of Singapore in population (and about three times the area) - and they regularly deploy 20% of their army in international peacekeeping operations.

 

[riksavage]

Singapore’s armed forces are built around a conscripted force based on the Israeli model. Their focus is defence of Singapore and immediate region. Due to demographics they continue to be very reluctant to get involved directly in any contentious military adventure such as Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Singapore defence forces, though well equipped and well trained, focus their efforts to deal with threats in there own backyard and have zero recent operational experience fighting a conventional or modern counter-insurgency war (The Malayan Emergency was more than a military generation ago). Unlike the Aussies and Kiwis they do not send units to support or take part in coalition combat operations, and I doubt they ever will. Because of this a tripartite military agreement between Singapore, Australia and NZ to send a combined fighting force to conflict zones would be very unlikely.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[riksavage]

I'm sure the Singapore Commandos would be keen to test themselves in combat operations, after all it's the only real way to test your selection process, training and tactics. Foreign exchange programs are great though and allow you to share current best practice amongst your peers, thats why the German's (GSG9) introduced the CTC competition, which now attracts over 40 international and domestic CT teams.

 

[Todjaeger]

Luxembourg is about a sixth the size of Singapore in population (and about three times the area) - and they regularly deploy 20% of their army in international peacekeeping operations.

There is a significant difference between the defence situation of Luxembourg and Singapore. Luxembourg is a member of NATO, and all the bordering nations of Luxembourg are also members of NATO as well. In short, Luxembourg doesn't need a defence force to protect itself from it's closest neighbours.

With Singapore, it has a defence force that might potentially be called upon to defend against attacks from one of it's neighbours. Not to mention the possibility of threats from unaffiliated third parties (Capt. J Sparrow & the Pirates of the Malacca Straits... )

In short then, Luxembourg is a largerly secure minor nation in a stable region. Singapore is in a somewhat less stable region and has greater security threats, requiring it to keep more of it's defence forces available locally when possible.

-Cheers

 

[luv2surf]

Actually, I find the Aus, NZ and Singaporean interest moves in similar directions. I'm surprised no one has mooted a joint defence deployment force yet. The problem with Singapore and NZ is that due to its size, it can't normally justify whole ground units deploying in international missions.

Similar directions ?
I wouldn't be comparing Singapore with NZ, in size and gear Sing towers over NZ.Quality,however, is an entirely different thing.
I'm sure the Kiwi's would love to get their hands on some of Sings kit.

Also, lest it comes to national defence which is more apparent, it would be hard for Singaporeans to link the lives of young men to wars in other continents/countries and the loses thereafter at this stage of the country`s evolution.

But I also think the larger issue is the reaction by the muslim majority in SEA and large minority in Singapore given that they would most likely be deployed in Muslim dominated war-torn areas. It is actually very sensitive in the sense that the Singapore government does not want to give any room of support for Muslim extremist elements within Singapore. Or give any ammunition to extremists within SEA to use Singapore(US`s stooge/Israel of the East, etc) as a rallying call for war.

All nations could come up with excuses not to send their sons/daughters into harms way...

Well, KC-135s together with Endurance class LPDs have deployed to the gulf in supports of Ops Enduring Freedom. They have also sent helo and ground units for UN missions (I think the largest being Interfet in East Timor when a force of 300+ were deployed).

At the outset of hostilities Singapore refused to send combat troops to East Timor.(iirc they contributed 4? medics who did not go ashore) it was only after the situation was comparatively secure that they made a contribution.(6mths?)

in short then, Luxembourg is a largerly secure minor nation in a stable region. Singapore is in a somewhat less stable region and has greater security threats, requiring it to keep more of it's defence forces available locally when possible.

If Singapore had the will, it could easily contribute troops for overseas missions but has always shown a reluctance to put their soldiers into combat situations.
Singaporeans like to rave about the size and quality of their military, until there is an opportunity to use it...

 

[metro]

That's the politicians point of view. I think it's VERY debatable that Australia's M1A1 are NOT the "best" tanks in the world, however they ARE very good and definitely amongst the best in the world, which should be saying enough...

Hey, our universities have done very well with producing some very fine lawyers. When I was in college I had a Prof. who taught at our "law school," but was unique in that he found the time to bless us students who were/are the prey of his regular students, by fitting us into an "international law" course. It was very much his own version of "International Law." What was funny was that I walked into his office one day, and while I was talking to him, I saw two things I'll never forget (one of those moments). One, was a small statute of a an old man sitting in a chair, and the base of the statute read, "Got a problem? Sue the F***IN Bastard"! The other was a plaque on his desk that said, "The Total Value of the Invention of the Printing Press is found in the "Fine Print"!

Needless to say, we have a nation of Lawyers who will sue/defend anyone they can for literally anything. However, americans have learned some "Fine" marketing skills (needing to sell w/o being sued), e.g. The M1A1--The Best Tank In The World! ® Just another name for the tank... didn't even say, "...entire world" (lawyers' speak and marketing dream)! The M1A2--MULTINANO® HYPER-POWERII® PLANETARY-DWELLER ®! Sounds great, I'd want one! But like most things in the US, just make up some BS words, create and sell to a market and stick the disclaimers in the "Super Fine Print."

Didn't want to get that off the topic, but it is amusing to see things printed like that, with "USA" behind it. Obviously this is not to say that the M1A1 isn't a great tank (it is)... it's just that we haven't ever made something that's not the best in the world?