Should Argentina try to get Greek Type 214s?

[iugim]

Should Argentina try to purchase the unaccepted Greek Type 214s? ThyssenKrupp is formally canceling Greee's the U-214 contract. Three or Four Type 214s have been built but not accepted.

I don't think they have the budget for any of them but with the amount of coast line they have it seems like a good replacement for their old 209 and type 1700s.

What do you think??

 

[StevoJH]

Should Argentina try to purchase the unaccepted Greek Type 214s? ThyssenKrupp is formally canceling Greee's the U-214 contract. Three or Four Type 214s have been built but not accepted.

I don't think they have the budget for any of them but with the amount of coast line they have it seems like a good replacement for their old 209 and type 1700s.

What do you think??

I think they need to buy frigate replacements before they even think about Submarine replacements.

 

[tatra]

There's nothing wrong with the Meko 360s and 140s. They could do with something to replace the Type 42s. Rather than spend money on subs, that money is better spent on aircraft replacements (i.e. something newer than Super Etendard, A4 Skyhawk and Mirage III + Israeli derivatives thereof)

 

[StevoJH]

Lets just agree that the Argentines have many things they could spend money on to bring their forces up to scratch. And the Meko 360's are heading towards 30 years old (26 or 27 years old?), as are the first of the 140's. Their three A69's are over 30 years old now as well.

 

[turin]

I don't think they have the budget for any of them but with the amount of coast line they have it seems like a good replacement for their old 209 and type 1700s.

As you write, the deciding factor here is money, not requirements. I'm sure there are a great many countries out there with the requirement for some new subs, but that does not make them a likely customer, does it? ;-)

Thinking about it...Taiwan would be just perfect for that deal, but then again, for political reasons of course they wont get their hands on those boats.

 

[kato]

I'm sure there are a great many countries out there with the requirement for some new subs

Nah, not really. A lot of countries are either in upgrade programs, or have just bought submarines in the past 10 years.

Possible customers by my estimate:
- in Europe: Poland*, Romania*
- in Asia: Thailand*, Saudi Arabia?, Taiwan?
- in Africa: Egypt?
- in South America: Peru, Argentina

That's about it. Taiwan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt aren't really all that likely due to politics, while Peru and Argentina wouldn't have the money likely.

*- not for the full number

 

[Vivendi]

Nah, not really. A lot of countries are either in upgrade programs, or have just bought submarines in the past 10 years.

Possible customers by my estimate:
- in Europe: Poland*, Romania*
- in Asia: Thailand*, Saudi Arabia?, Taiwan?
- in Africa: Egypt?
- in South America: Peru, Argentina

That's about it. Taiwan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt aren't really all that likely due to politics, while Peru and Argentina wouldn't have the money likely.

*- not for the full number

What about Singapore?

And Israel?

The German Focus magazine reported on November 24, 2003, that the German government had halted the delivery of the two submarines to Israel. It was later clarified that while Israel did have an interest in additional submarines, given the financial burden associated with such a deal for Israel, Washington or Germany, only technical negotiations were being conducted with HDW, and that as a result, neither a formal nor preliminary request for any export license had been issued. The German Green party, however, who had originally opposed the delivery of the first three dolphin submarines, demanded that, in the future, additional submarines could only be delivered to Israel on the basis of a binding assurance that they would not be used as nuclear weapons platforms.

Submarines - Israel

 

[kato]

What about Singapore? And Israel?

Singapore just bought two Kockums A-17, to be recommissioned in Sg service next year.

The two additional Dolphins for Israel (to replace the Gals) were ordered in 2005 and are buing built already. Besides, the Dolphins are built with larger-diameter torpedo tubes for cruise missiles, something the 214 wouldn't offer...

 

[sweeneygov]

Romania is definitely out. They have only one rusting old Kilo at Constanta naval base very high in the water (probably having been stripped out). Their two major naval procurement programmes are for new surface ships and there is no funding for these either. Thailand would only want one boat, or perhaps two at the most.

 

[Uhu]

I don't think they have the budget for any of them but with the amount of coast line they have it seems like a good replacement for their old 209 and type 1700s.

BTW: What has happened to the unfinished TR1700s. Are they all broken up now?

 

[turin]

Apparently their parts were used up in order to maintain the operational boats. Certainly makes sense.

 

[swerve]

Thailand is reported to be reviving its plan (shelved some years ago) to buy two or three SSKs.

 

[OPSSG]

Thailand is reported to be reviving its plan (shelved some years ago) to buy two or three SSKs.

According to the Bangkok Post, the Thai government has budgeted only 4.99 billion baht for the Thai military to buy new weapons, including a submarine. I think that amount is only enough for 1 submarine (and I'm not sure if the 214 would be so cheap).

Do you have any other details? Some in other forums are speculating that the Thais are looking at the Nacken.

 

[OPSSG]

What about Singapore?

Singapore just bought two Kockums A-17, to be recommissioned in Sg service next year.

Yup, the Singapore AIP submarines are called the Archer Class (upgraded from the Vastergotland Class). Somehow I don't think Singapore will be looking at the 214, as we are currently using an all Swedish made submarine fleet. However, the 4 Challenger Class submarines (formerly known as the Sjöormen class and were commissioned between 1968-1969), two of which will be replaced by the Archer Class. The 4 refurbished Challenger Class entered RSN service between 1997 to 2001.

One of the two Archer Class was just launched in Sweden on 16 June 2009. Here's a video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb3R0ouZQYA]Singapore Navy - Archer Class Submarine[/ame]

 

[Pre-Dreadnought]

I'm a little out of it but knowing how much trouble, or rather concern, the Argentine submarines caused the Royal Navy in 1982, any modern conventional submarines would be a major improvement. Just a thought!

 

[swerve]

According to the Bangkok Post, the Thai government has budgeted only 4.99 billion baht for the Thai military to buy new weapons, including a submarine. I think that amount is only enough for 1 submarine (and I'm not sure if the 214 would be so cheap).

Do you have any other details? Some in other forums are speculating that the Thais are looking at the Nacken.

Hmm. That would only cover secondhand subs, I think.

No, I don't have any more details. Sorry.

 

[Vajt]

I'm a little out of it but knowing how much trouble, or rather concern, the Argentine submarines caused the Royal Navy in 1982, any modern conventional submarines would be a major improvement. Just a thought!

From articles I read, the RN had to place a large amount of resources to ensure protection from the Argentine subs.

I guess the 214 would be a nice option seeing how they already have experience with the U209 and TR1700 but as some mentioned, probably the aircraft replacements would be the first priority.

With some weapon upgrades and electronic upgrades, the MEKOs could probably be viable for a decade or more (one of the big advantages of the modular designs). Maybe also upgraded electronics, sonar and new torpedoes could keep their current subs operational for some years also. The biggest problem are the AF and Navy aircraft, they are really totally lacking. They need a little of everything...new helicopters, transport aircraft, special purpose aircraft (such as refueling, electronic warfare, MPA), new fighters, might as well also throw in UAVs and UCAVs.

Too bad for Argentina, a country with so much potential but internal corruption that won't let it achieve its potential.

-----JT-----

 

[Firn]

Argentina should of course know best just how effective working submarines with trained could be. If they plan to conquer las Malvinas again they should acquire them asap.

On the other hand it depends on the goal the political leadership wants to achieve. And as I do no not too much about their strategic thinking I have a hard time to make up my mind about it.

P.S: The article I spoke about is in the ASW thread

 

[OPSSG]

According to the Bangkok Post, the Thai government has budgeted only 4.99 billion baht for the Thai military to buy new weapons, including a submarine. I think that amount is only enough for 1 submarine (and I'm not sure if the 214 would be so cheap).

Do you have any other details? Some in other forums are speculating that the Thais are looking at the Nacken.

Hmm. That would only cover secondhand subs, I think.

No, I don't have any more details. Sorry.

A little off-topic news following our discussion. There's more speculation from the Malaysian website KL Security Review in Chinese. If the news speculation above is true, it is an interesting development. A possible first Chinese submarine sale to an ASEAN country?

Original article in Chinese below:

外交消息盛传中国有意向曼谷推销潜艇

KLS吉隆坡报导：一项尚未经官方证实的防务消息指出，泰国海军有意启动4艘潜艇采购计划。更有防务消息人士宣称，中国有意向泰国推销潜艇。 目前，KLS正与曼谷外交人士联系确认此事，而且亦没有中国潜艇出口到海外的消息，若此项消息属实，则可以视为中国再扩大东南亚装备市场推销及出口的力度! 消息更宣称，中国似乎有意以039宋级潜艇（右图，网络图片），向泰国做出推销。无论如何，基于这项消息不具备官方背景，故KLS将此消息，列为尚待确认中。 泰国海军早在1996年5月，曾经提出总值约5亿美元的预算，准备采购2至3艘常规潜艇，但基于当时发生金融风暴，曼谷被迫展延有关采购。 但目前，亦有外交人士告诉KLS，不看好泰国会顺利的采购潜艇，这是因为曼谷的政局尚不稳定。 为配合11月4日至7日举行的曼谷亚洲防务展，KLS将从本月开始，逐步的采访报导一些泰国的防务消息。泰国是KLS采访队巡回采访东南亚国家的第3站。届时，KLS记者会针对此事，在前线进行采访跟进，确认此事。

Limited English translation below.

China to intend to supply Bangkok with a submarine

The KLS Kuala Lumpur reported: An item not yet passes through the official confirmation. The Thai Navy intends to start 4 submarine buying plan. Some defense news public figure declared that China intends to promote their submarine to Thailand. At present, KLS contacted the Bangkok diplomatic personnel who confirms this matter. If this news is true, then China will be able to expand its military sales into Southeast Asia! The news declared that China intends to sell a 039 Song level submarine... The Thai Navy as early as in May, 1996, had proposed that an approximately US$500,000,000 budget, prepare to purchase 2 to 3 conventional submarines. At that time, because of the Asian financial crisis, Bangkok was compelled to delay plans. But at present, diplomatic personnel tell KLS, that because Bangkok's political situation is still unstable, plans to purchase a submarine will not be smooth...

Those who are able to read Chinese, please feel fee to amend it as it was done using an online translation tool.

 

[Ananda]

A little off-topic news following our discussion. There's more speculation from the Malaysian website KL Security Review in Chinese. If the news speculation above is true, it is an interesting development. A possible first Chinese submarine sale? Original article in Chinese below:

Those who are able to read Chinese, please feel fee to amend it as it was done using an online translation tool.

OPSSG..USD 500 mio for 3 subs..?? If this come through right...will the Thai's willing to accept Mings...??? Or 500 mio will be enough to bought 3 - 4 Song's...??

Except with Egypt in the 80's..I don't think China have been able to sold their subs anywhere else (off course North Korea can't be counted )..
Even we, with limited budget's realistically will have to prepared at least USD 700 mio to get a pair of modern up dated and competitive (technologically) subs..