Scottish navy

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Scotland already has a fisheries protection force with a couple of OPVs and the like. If they chose a fully independent armed forces as opposed to sustaining the current Union forces then the key indicator of capability will be finance. Scotland has 5 million people and a GDP of over $200 billion, very similar to Norway. It would also have grounds for a major territorial dispute with the rump UK over marine boundaries after the UK changed the border from Berwick to Barryburn (well inside Scotland).

Independence is all about North Sea Oil and Scotland would be expected to need forces to secure their sovereignty. Also as a successor state it would be expected to be a member of NATO and make contributions to collective security. I would expect they would raise a reasonable small force including some tactical fighters and frigates.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
Scotland already has a fisheries protection force with a couple of OPVs and the like. If they chose a fully independent armed forces as opposed to sustaining the current Union forces then the key indicator of capability will be finance. Scotland has 5 million people and a GDP of over $200 billion, very similar to Norway. It would also have grounds for a major territorial dispute with the rump UK over marine boundaries after the UK changed the border from Berwick to Barryburn (well inside Scotland). Independence is all about North Sea Oil and Scotland would be expected to need forces to secure their sovierntly.Scotland already has a fisheries protection force with a couple of OPVs and the like. If they chose a fully independent armed forces as opposed to sustaining the current Union forces then the key indicator of capability will be finance. Scotland has 5 million people and a GDP of over $200 billion, very similar to Norway. It would also have grounds for a major territorial dispute with the rump UK over marine boundaries after the UK changed the border from Berwick to Barryburn (well inside Scotland).

Independence is all about North Sea Oil and Scotland would be expected to need forces to secure their sovereignty. Also as a successor state it would be expected to be a member of NATO and make contributions to collective security. I would expect they would raise a reasonable small force including some tactical fighters and frigates.
The North Sea Oil question will be contentious because some of the fields will have to be shared with England.

I agree a military priority will be raising a force to protect/secure the oil rigs and associated infrastructure, a role which is currently carried out by RM/MCT assets. Alex Salmond is a huge fan of Norway (using the country as his primary role model now Ireland has gone south economically), so he could develop a parallel force and undertake joint operations with the Norwegians in the North Sea. What ever happens there will be a capability gap until the appropriate command, control, orbat and equipment is in place.

The first vote will be for independence, if the Scot's vote yes then the negotiations will begin in earnest. A second vote will be held on acceptance of any negotiated settlement. Both sides will play hard-ball particularly on debt redistribution.

It will be interesting to see if Scotland (pressure from the left/greens) opts for neutrality over NATO membership in the early years. Now the threat from the USSR is much depleted, they may opt to focus their efforts on resource protection and domestic counter terrorism and avoid overseas commitments other than UN peace keeping (follow the Irish model). In the early years Salmond will have to spend what ever he has on keeping domestic promises (free prescription charges, free University places, job creation etc.). Defence may take a back seat bar what is absolutely necessary to protect the country's natural resources. He would be wise to offset the loss of future RN contracts by ordering a batch of OPV's immediately to keep the Scottish shipyards going. All future RN work will go south for political reasons. Scotlands loss will be Newcastles gain.

Airforce wise the Scot's could demand a sqn of Typhoon be transferred or possibly even look at Gripen? Rotary and maritime surveillance (manned or unmanned) will need to be bought or transferred from the UK's inventory. He could leverage of UK/Canada fast air training until a more permanent solution is put in place, so sticking with Typhoon has merits, BAE could be engaged in a long term service contract.

How the armed forces is divided will be very contentious, easy for the Scottish Regiments with strong local ties, not so easy for RAF/Navy who have mixed nationality crews. They may have to vote on whether they want to join a new Scottish Defence Force or stay where they are. I suspect the Scottish government will offer financial incentives to encourage a switch to the new force and encourage families to relocate.

In addition to a new military the country will need to invest in a diplomatic service and domestic/overseas intelligence agency, which will also take time and money.
 

Troothsayer

New Member
An SNP lead Scotland would not be a member of NATO as it would have to agree with its nuclear policies.

The Norway example is not a good one. It doesn't have Scotlands expected debt/GDP ratio, nor its poor health or public sector dependence nor does it have to splurge a percentage of its cash on the EU.

Salmond will struggle to keep free prescriptions & university on seperation as it is, let alone a military equivalent to Norway.

The marine boundaries issue will be interesting, the Eng/Sco border runs from SW to NE not horizontally. Any borders agreed internally within the UK would have to be open to discussion.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
So if not pro-NATO, what's the SNP's position on e.g. multlaterism & the UN (which entails "maintaining international peace and security, developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights", some of the consequences of being another good "international citizen" country etc.

Surely that would be the case and if so, would that not suggest a hypothetical Scottish defence force or armed forces would have a lot more harder, interoperable and capable organisation and kit? Consequences of an independant Scotland with her new international world view and relationship building etc?

Otherwise what we seem to be reading here, appears to be a political desire to embrace a pacifism of sorts and more-or-less "overnight", eg going from an integral part of what, the world's top 2 armed forces', to become a type of patrolling/coast guard etc :confused:
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
But the Irish would be "more capable" in many ways (militarily and international citizen etc).

(BTW no offence meant to either nation)!

(the 666 posts is a coincidence :) )
 

kromeriz

New Member
If the UK had to relocate its Trident force from Scotland then Barrow in Cumbria would perhaps be the best base for its support structure. SSBNs would have to transit the North Channel to make it to the patrol areas in the North Atlantic but that's not so bad. Its pretty deep water so hard to mine and arguably less restrictive than the Clyde.
Only if you are prepared to dredge the channel everday. It is why Barrow failed as a port - to expensive to dredge.
 

kromeriz

New Member
One question not asked is whether the EU will allow Scotland to join. The answer may not suit: doffing the hat to Scottish nationalist independence would open the gates to Galicians, Slovak Hungarians, not to mention the Basques and Catalans.

What would be interesting is how the English feel about it: heard it so long, read it so long - in the Economist for example, I would be happy for the Scots to do one. No more Scottish politicians like Brown and Blair to name but 2.

It is an interesting point re Oil rig security - how will they maintain capability? British special forces are stretched now. Flip side of the coin, overnight re-sizing of Army Orbat will leave Brit Mil a brigade short of manning = still three to go in Afghan. Questions questions
 

Troothsayer

New Member
What would be interesting is how the English feel about it
We're a democracy, what ever will be will be. Frankly far too many statistics are thrown about to support whoever favours what. Personally I don't see it within the next 10 years as Scottish share of the debt would cripple them. After a recovery, who knows...

I just hope the UK is not split on a one-off vote and the binding referendum is put to Scots after negotiations of settlement terms are fully known so people are voting with eyes wide open and not because of Braveheart tendencies.
 

BuSOF

New Member
One question not asked is whether the EU will allow Scotland to join. The answer may not suit: doffing the hat to Scottish nationalist independence would open the gates to Galicians, Slovak Hungarians, not to mention the Basques and Catalans.
The EU doesn't have anything to say whether Scotland should secede or not and if it does, then it will all be over and done for Brussels to oppose it. After all Scotland is already in as of now. As for eventual SDF I would say it would be something in the lines of 4-8 OPV corvettes (the Danish Stanflex 3000 would be the ceiling, but the vessels probably would be smaller), the same number of multirole vessels like the Canadian Kingston class patrol-MCM craft and 3-6 support vessels. The Air Force would be like the Austrian, but with armed props instead of fighters and jet trainers. The Army would probably be a mountain brigade, an infantry brigade for the Lowlands (both would be integrated active/ reserve) and a marine unit like the swedish Amphibious regiment or similar, plus maube a SOF company. A brigade-equivalent of logistics would be a joint asset. Of course I am just guessing.
 

Jhom

New Member
One question not asked is whether the EU will allow Scotland to join. The answer may not suit: doffing the hat to Scottish nationalist independence would open the gates to Galicians, Slovak Hungarians, not to mention the Basques and Catalans
I am Galician, and most galicians would say that they are "galegos y espanholes", nobody here want independence, same happens in the Basque Country and Catalunya, its the noisy pro-independence 33% that makes the independence dance... dont talk about countries you dont know without the proper info ;)
 
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