Saudi considers T-95 MBTs?

[Izzy1]

The Saudis are under no obligation to placate any French government under any circumstances.

On the contrary, France is a critical element in Saudi's economic, foreign and security policy. The Typhoon contract and the opening up to international tender of the MIKSA border defence system - a contract that Thales thought it had won - as well as several other matters have led to strains between the two countries. Avoiding such strained relations with Paris is in Riyadh's best ineterests, thus the latest round of arms deals that Saudi and France are now exploring (Ceaser 155mm, FREMM Frigates, Scorpene/Marlin SSKs, A330 Tanker/Transports, Cougar CSAR).

In regards to an MBT, whatever they buy, they will have to do it soon. 4th Armoured Brigade deseprately needs new equipment to replace its AMX-30s. The M60A3s are due an upgrade as well.

 

[Scorpius]

Has anyone bought the challanger 2?

Oman I think.

 

[duplex]

<<On the contrary, France is a critical element in Saudi's economic, foreign and security policy. The Typhoon contract and the opening up to international tender of the MIKSA border defence system - a contract that Thales thought it had won - as well as several other matters have led to strains between the two countries.>>

It doesn't matter, France,unlike Britain and the USA is not commited to defend Saudi Regime and the Royal family against threats from outside.This is a very important consideration.Regarding the 8 Billion € border defence system ,Thales has lost this tender because the Saudis have recognized that the French offer was not the best for money. Bea Systems and especially Raytheon can offer systems that are superior to French.I still believe that the French won't get this MBT order in the end..My personal opinion needless to say.

 

[Izzy1]

Rubbish, the Leclerc is in use with the UAE, who seem quite happy with it, thats why the saudi's are considering it! Its a good desert tank plain and simple.

I don't dispute the merits of Le Clerc, it is a high quality platform that certainly offers greater capability than some other MBT systems Saudi has been linked with. The UAE has had some major problems maintaining their Tropicalised Le Clerc, but I would guess this may not be the fault of the vehicle itself. Also from the logistical stand point, Le Clerc makes more sense than introducing a Russian or Chinese sourced MBT into Saudi service - where western (NATO esp.) systems and logistics predominate.

But as usual in regards Saudi procurement, the actual military capability of a system is not necessarily the motivation behind the purchase. Indeed, whether the armed forces 'need' the system sometimes doesn't even come into play. For example - why does the Saudi Navy need 12 FREMM Frigates?
The RSNF struggles manning the 3 Al Riyadh FFGs already in service. We have over 1000 MBTs on paper, yet more than half of them have been in long-term storage because there aren't enough trained crews to operate them nor actual units to deploy them too.

Saudi simply buys for reasons other than whether the system is good in the desert or not. Prestige, power and politics.

 

[Scorpius]

^their management sucks.when oil will run out...

 

[radiosilence]

it basically comes down to them wanting to buy "friends" internationally which becomes a logistical nightmare for their military. hence, the need for so many foreigners for support and maintance.

 

[Waylander]

I'm not a friend of unmanned turrets for MBTs.
It makes you depended purely on techincal observation.
The eyeball mark 1 is one of the best friends you have while commanding a tank.
There is a reason for tank commanders to look out of their hatchet as often as they can.

 

[merocaine]

But as usual in regards Saudi procurement, the actual military capability of a system is not necessarily the motivation behind the purchase. Indeed, whether the armed forces 'need' the system sometimes doesn't even come into play. For example - why does the Saudi Navy need 12 FREMM Frigates?
The RSNF struggles manning the 3 Al Riyadh FFGs already in service. We have over 1000 MBTs on paper, yet more than half of them have been in long-term storage because there aren't enough trained crews to operate them nor actual units to deploy them too.

Saudi simply buys for reasons other than whether the system is good in the desert or not. Prestige, power and politics.

yeah that 12 frigates thing is unbelievible. I dont understand why they dont just cut a deal to have this stuff built in saudi, like the egyptians did with abram.

It makes you depended purely on techincal observation.
The eyeball mark 1 is one of the best friends you have while commanding a tank.
There is a reason for tank commanders to look out of their hatchet as often as they can.

good point, what happens when your optics are knocked out/fail?
could be a classic case of over compensation after years of making tommy boiliers

 

[mikehotwheelz]

I'm not a friend of unmanned turrets for MBTs.
It makes you depended purely on techincal observation.
The eyeball mark 1 is one of the best friends you have while commanding a tank.
There is a reason for tank commanders to look out of their hatchet as often as they can.

I know it's an IFV, not a tank but doesn't the new German Puma have an unmanned turret? Just a query, I know its off topic, sorry

 

[Waylander]

Jup, and I also don't like it there but the benefits you get on an IFV are bigger than on an MBT.
The Puma has an armor against 30mm over the frontal arc and RPG all around with a 6 men group inside.
And some of these men are still able to look out.
It's a compromise.

With an unmanned MBT turret you just gain a smaller height.
The problem with the autoloader has nothing to do with the turret being manned or unmanned.
I don't see why you have to do such a compromise there.

BTW, why should the Saudis want to buy a tank which is not even near to serial production?

 

[Apocalypse]

The real aim of these purchases are not defence. They have huge foreign reserves, and with it they keep americans , british and french at reasonable bay, or pay them back ( maintaining jobs in defence industry )or kick backs as well).

The recent purchase of Typhoons is an ample example of this. Just helping the euro defence industry.

French have been left out , so lets c.

I think they are trying to counterweight the Iranians in Mid-East power. Those two countries are not the best of friends and have conflicting interests in Iraq.

 

[adsH]

There's another thing to keep-in mind, when we talk about Saudi Procurements, each force has a different "Boss" (literally). Different brothers control different ministries. Each force would naturally have preferences in the vendors. Izzy might be able-to elaborate further, but the-bottom line is saudis are cash Rich, and it appears that this would be an even better year for them, so what seems illogical and uneconomical for us might not be for them since, there threshold to tolerate the cost would be very different.

 

[Wooki]

Jup, and I also don't like it there but the benefits you get on an IFV are bigger than on an MBT.
The Puma has an armor against 30mm over the frontal arc and RPG all around with a 6 men group inside.
And some of these men are still able to look out.
It's a compromise.

With an unmanned MBT turret you just gain a smaller height.
The problem with the autoloader has nothing to do with the turret being manned or unmanned.
I don't see why you have to do such a compromise there.

BTW, why should the Saudis want to buy a tank which is not even near to serial production?

Because its an advanced design. Unmanned turrets make you very hard to hit because they lower your silohette. This is particularly useful in an urban battlefield when you are up against infantry fired ATGMs and RPGs of the sort that are prolific in the Middle East. Firing an RPG-7 at a low tank that is moving from right to left at 30km/h? Your chances of getting a kill shot are nearly zero...add a cross wind and it gets lower. Kick up some dust and its lower again.

This sort of thing would make the old 'S' Tank a great assault gun (for instance) because it can literally hide behind a low wall as it trundles along, turns the corner and boom. Infantry don't have all the bells and whistles available to another tank, so what appears obsolete on the force-on-force engagement is not necessarily true when digging out insurgents and guerillas in an urban environment. What you need there is solid combined force tactics and that means an upgraded situation awareness suite and you are basically good to go.

So the T-95? Why not? The Soviets.... (sorry Russians) certainly need some cash to get the program going... and despite what you read , see and hear in the media, their tank designers are shit-hot. They can deduce the same lessons from watching CNN that American and European tank designers can and they can probably offer a reasonable price that is competitive with a known design.

This is the one client who could seriously make it happen for them.

cheers

W

 

[fylr71]

Unless the Saudis are trying to diversify their tank inventory they would have only 1 reason for looking at another tank besides the M1A2 and that is they found something superior to the Abrams which certainly won't sit well with the US army. Saudi Arabia has firmly been in the camp of the west for more then 15 years. I doubt they would begin to buy Russian equipment unless they found it to be superior.

 

[MG 3]

The Saudis are trying to diversify. They were in Pak a few months back with 2 of their companies and a detatchment of experst looking at our Al-Talah's and M113 command vehicals. There was also some newsabout them looking at Al-Khalids for their army(unlikely).

The real prob is the attitude they have to face from American companies. Its is a real pain in the ***. You cant imagine what they go through just to change some thing like the engine oil. My father was attached with the Saudi army in Tobuk.

 

[KGB]

My understanding is that T-xx series tanks are optimized for "deep battle", which reflects russian doctrine. I'm guessing that the Saudis don't plan to use their tanks with the same doctrine in mind. I mean, for defensive purposes and for countries with limited manpower isn't the Western tank approach more appropriate? For example, the low turrets do make it harder for the tanks to fire top down don't they? Plus if they engage in a mobile defence, the supply train of their tanks get shorter. Part of the soviet philosophy I imagine comes from their experience in WW2 where mechanical and fuel factors always seemed to blunt their spearheads the deeper they went.

 

[Rich]

Unless the Saudis are trying to diversify their tank inventory they would have only 1 reason for looking at another tank besides the M1A2 and that is they found something superior to the Abrams which certainly won't sit well with the US army. Saudi Arabia has firmly been in the camp of the west for more then 15 years. I doubt they would begin to buy Russian equipment unless they found it to be superior.

Sure there is. Every "made in USA" piece of equipment they have is like, in their minds, waving an American flag concerning spheres of Influence. The Saudi monarchy is concerned about to much western influence in the kingdom and the illusion of same among their populace. That's why our troops were stationed as far away from Saudi society as possible.

So having Russian built tanks would give them the impression of independence from western policy. What are the odds of them ever actually fighting the tank in the first place? So what does it matter if one is better then the other?

The real prob is the attitude they have to face from American companies. Its is a real pain in the ***. You cant imagine what they go through just to change some thing like the engine oil. My father was attached with the Saudi army in Tobuk.

First I heard of our companies giving customers a hard time about changing oil in tanks.

 

[Waylander]

In the end we all know what are the most important things in tanks.
Music and lunch boxes.

 

[extern]

In the end we all know what are the most important things in tanks.
Music and lunch boxes.

I'd prefer MTV...
Anyway, I found some video with T-95 (not MTV). http://webfile.ru/1106373 Enjoy!

 

[Waylander]

My download is killed everytime I am round about 30%.