Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
.............. but in Russian calculations any helicopter carrier could potentially be modified to handle fixed wing a/c & therefore is just 1 more carrier that their potential adversaries have.
it's a spurious argument

you just can't turn a helicopter carrier into a defacto fixed wing carrier - eg (for starters)

  • the deck loading ratings are completely different.
  • you can't re-engineer them to suddenly take on the traps and launch gear necessary either.
  • the internal bunkerage issues are completely different
  • the armoury layouts are different
  • the decks are not treated for high temps from engine exhaust

if the helo carrier has not been designed from the outset like the Wasps, then the cost of re-engineering would make it almost a worthless exercise to undertake., re-engineering, recertification etc.....

helo carriers are not defacto proxy fixed wing carriers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Indian carrier development is long, but it's in STOBAR now & moving to CATOBAR, just like Russia & China. Australia isn't there anymore but in Russian calculations any helicopter carrier could potentially be modified to handle fixed wing a/c & therefore is just 1 more carrier that their potential adversaries have. ! day a VTOL, if not STOVL, fighter may get on board turning it into what they had on the Kiev class TAKRs & now on USN 8 Wasp-class & 11 planned
America class. The same goes for Thailand, SK & Japan. Thanks for including the Oosumi class, but since they got newer & bigger ships I omitted it.
India used to have a carrier with catapults, changed to STOVL & now has STOBAR. What's the trend?

If Russian calculations say that any helicopter carrier is a potential fixed-wing carrier, Russian calculations are wrong. Some helicopter carriers (& old fixed-wing carriers) are too small for current STOVL aircraft. It'd be cheaper & easier to build new ships than develop a new aircraft.

And some flat deck ships don't even have lifts big enough to handle a STOVL aircraft, or any but a small helicopter.

Would you class the Italian Santi as aircraft carriers? They fit your criteria - http://www.jeffhead.com/worldwideaircraftcarriers/giorgio4.jpg
But look up their size.
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
OK, even if they don't make those calculations, still Russia has only Adm.K & no dedicated rotary wing platform. So, if they r going to build a CATOBAR class it'll most likely be close to the size of the Nimitz class, if not bigger, to handle extra helicopters/drones as well, if need be- like USS Nimitz in 1980 off Iran, USS Eisenhower off Haiti in 1994 & USS Kitty Hawk in 2001 off Pakistan.
Which Indian carrier already had catapults? If so, it still doesn't exclude the possibility that the IN won't get CATOBARs eventually. NATO members now have/will soon have total of ~31 a/c carriers of all types, & in any event, if India, PRC, Brazil, France, UK, Italy, Spain, Turkey, & Japan have/will have a/c carriers/LHA/LHD/HD types, this by itself gives Russia a good excuse to build a few too & may soon build its own helicopter carriers to replace French Mistrals.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Meanwhile Russia quietly and without pomp, took delivery of its first upgarded ASW helo under the name Ka-27M. 22 are contracted so far in two batches of 8 and 14 respectively, with a total of 46 allegedly planned for upgrade. Given the poor shape of Naval Aviation helos and general gaps in anti-sub capabilities within the VMF, this is a much needed program that should not only expand the abilities of the helos but increase the operational readiness rate since the upgrade includes an overhaul. Note this is the first serial upgraded model, two previous prototypes exist. This is the beginning of active service for the type.

Первый Ñерийно модернизированный противолодочный вертолет Ка-27Ðœ - bmpd

EDIT: Interesting news, according to CAST, there are currently only 4 operational Ka-29 transport helos in the AVMF. However the Kumertaus helo plant is delivering 6 more after an overhaul, raising total fleet size to 10. Currently 2 of the working ones are in the AVMF training center and the other two are both on the Admiral Kuznetsov, in the Mediterranean. Strangely all 6 of the overhauled machines are headed to the Pacific Fleet.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2337662.html
 
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Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
President Putin recently said: "в последние годы многое сделано для повышения обороноспособности страны". При этом он признал: "Разумеется, многого и не хватает, нам многое нужно сделать по линии укрепления ядерной триады, совершенствования системы СПРН (система предупреждения о ракетном нападении), в Воздушно-космических войсках, еще больше (нужно сделать) на море, в Сухопутных войсках, нужно совершенствовать системы разведки и связи".
Translation: "much has been done to improve the country's defense in recent years." However, he admitted: "Of course, many people do not have enough, we have a lot to do along the line of strengthening the nuclear triad, improving EWS system (missile attack warning system), in air and space forces, even more (needs to be done) at sea, Ground Forces, we need to improve intelligence and communication systems." It's clear that modernization of the RFN isn't over yet! I'm sure they'll find ways to save $ in other areas to have enough for the buildup!
Last in a series of 8 Borey class SSBNs, Prince Pozharsky started in Severodvinsk. It's the 5th boat of improved project Borey-A. Update: Nuclear Submarine Construction, Adm. Nakhimov refit Partial translation: "Prince Vladimir" will withdraw from the 55th workshop of the plant in 2017. All subsequent ships of this series will be launched in a timely manner and promptly transferred to the Russian Navy, he said in an interview with the CEO of RNS "Sevmash" Michael Budnichenko. He also noted that the volume of work on state defense orders will rise, and the modernization of production facilities will in future proceed with the construction of nuclear submarines of the fifth generation of the "Husky." In addition to the ballistic missile submarine in the "Sevmash" at the same time built multipurpose nuclear-powered submarines (NPS) "Arkhangelsk", "Kazan", "Krasnoyarsk", "Novosibirsk" and "Perm" improved project 885M (08851) "Ash-M." .. Simultaneously with the construction of boats under repair heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" and its modernization project for 11442M. In addition, the company's specialists provide technical assistance in the operation of the Indian aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya". The company hopes to continue this work in the operation of an aircraft carrier for 40 years.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
OK, even if they don't make those calculations, still Russia has only Adm.K & no dedicated rotary wing platform. So, if they r going to build a CATOBAR class it'll most likely be close to the size of the Nimitz class[/URL].
the russians aren't interested in USN supercarrier displacements, they are more focussed on building carriers in the Midway to Forrestal range - and Forrestal equivalence would be a stretch as they would need to start rewriting their CONOPS for larger organic air wing integration.

they don't operate their air wings like the USN or RN - and I don't see any sign that they are revisiting maritime force development.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Then why was Storm in 90-100K Ton category being designed & proposed? Only for export to India? They may eventually get 1-2 of them & the rest smaller, just like USN had only 1 Enterprise class & + 2 CV-66/67 followed by 8 Nimitz class.
its not the shipyard issue which defines force development.

look at the force structure - look at the force numbers. they don't have the numbers, they haven't shown any of the requirements to develop and redefine force structure to take up supercarrier developments

where in any of that is there any indication that the russians are heading down the supercarrier route? its just not fitting within the national intent

and if you are going to use a mid 60's USN model then go back and read what I just posted at the start

btw, Indian has a 4 Navy model where they want to be able to surge and form up those fleets quickly - the Russians do not, and the Russians do not have the same geo hurdles that the IN has

2 HVA's are not a force model as at any one point in time you realistically only have 1 TF available, the IN does not have a lower order fleet model either, so if 1 x HVA asset is gone, then there is no redundancy, or even lower order back up

you're trying to make things fit a preferred model rather than looking at the foundation issues which drive force development
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Then why was Storm in 90-100K Ton category being designed & proposed? Only for export to India? They may eventually get 1-2 of them & the rest smaller, just like USN had only 1 Enterprise class & + 2 CV-66/67 followed by 8 Nimitz class.
Shtorm is designated as an export project likely to suggest that Russia has expertise in the area and possibly score work for Russian companies on carrier programs in other countries. A domestic carrier program has not even been approved. Work is proceeding right now on a carrier concept. One hasn't actually been approved yet.
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
Even if they choose a modern variant of the Ulyanovsk class instead, it will be ~79,76 Tons Full Load, only ~20 T less than the Nimitz. They try to follow in the USN footsteps as far as carriers r concerned &, given their geographical position only 5-6 CVNs, i.e. 1/2 of what USN has may be enough. Just a thought!
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Even if they choose a modern variant of the Ulyanovsk class instead, it will be ~79,76 Tons Full Load, only ~20 T less than the Nimitz. They try to follow in the USN footsteps as far as carriers r concerned &, given their geographical position only 5-6 CVNs, i.e. 1/2 of what USN has may be enough. Just a thought!
parity tonnage does not demonstrate any russian desire to emulate the USN in carrier application. (and its not parity tonnage - it's 80% and that impacts in the end as the aircraft fitout is also not remotely similar due to type and tempo constraints of stobar compared to catobar)

the russian carriers aren't even close to the late 1950's Forrestal which had a minimum 50% greater warfighting load
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
I mean not in tonnage, but in those future CATOBAR designs that already went public. Even at 80 tons they still be considered in the "super carrier" category.
Interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1xqEOkUiVg
Their offer to India is to defray the cost of construction for their own use. The Sevmash is owned by the state & such an offer has not so hidden agenda.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I mean not in tonnage, but in those future CATOBAR designs that already went public. Even at 80 tons they still be considered in the "super carrier" category.
Interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1xqEOkUiVg
Their offer to India is to defray the cost of construction for their own use. The Sevmash is owned by the state & such an offer has not so hidden agenda.
You can consider it "super duper carrier" if you want, it doesn't change the basic reality. Russian future carrier plans at this point are very murky. The only thing we can talk about with any serious level of predictability is the continued operation of an upgraded Kuznetsov. That's it. Gf0012 has addressed your comments with considerable patience and in great detail, vis-a-vis proposed Russian projects in the area. Aircraft carriers are not some sort of national measuring contest. They're tailored to the requirements and budgetary constraints of the country building them.
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
I appreciate all that & partilly agree with u! Russia may get extra $ soon from Japanese concessions on the Kurils, if nothing else. The money from the 1867 sale of Alaska were invested in the railroads, so why not in the CVNs this time?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I mean not in tonnage, but in those future CATOBAR designs that already went public. Even at 80 tons they still be considered in the "super carrier" category.
Interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1xqEOkUiVg
Their offer to India is to defray the cost of construction for their own use. The Sevmash is owned by the state & such an offer has not so hidden agenda.
you seem to be associating tonnage with supercarrier references - hence why I pointedly referred to the capability difference between the first supercarrier of 1959 (Forrestal) and the performance gaps

there are basically 6 different types of carriers that became mainstram builds. Midway was regarded as a supercarrier in WW2 terms as she was double the tonnage and almost triple the aircraft warload of most competitors.

Forrestal was the first of the modern and post war supercarriers - she was a 1/3rd larger than Midway and had a similar increase in warfighting punch.

You make repeated references to following the US in aircraft carrier design - but the russian design and utility reasons for their carriers is nothing like the US philosophy - it never has been. Their aviation assets had and have fundamentally different design and fleet roles. The CONOPs is completely different. As opposed to the Indians and Chinese who use parallel designs and where the CONOPS is more geared to traditional "western" carrier tasking.

the only similarity is that they are large, have a large flat deck and can carry conventional engined aircraft - bearing in mind again that russia is geared for stobar applications - where is there any demonstration of a protracted commitment to developing and fielding catobar - they're at least 10 years out from doing that even if they had a legacy development to start from

you just can't extrapolate an export design to a future local build - the other metrics have to be in place before you can start foreseeing the future.

the supercarrier tag is not just about tonnage - its about the disproportionate effect that the platform can bring to the fight - and in real clinical absolute projection terms, the current russian, indian and chinese "copy" carriers are less capable than the USS Forrestal - a 55+ year old design. Sure they have some fancier electronics - but at the aviation asset throw level, they are sub par

There's a critical consideration here that you seem to be unaware of or are ignoring.

The capital ship doesn't define the capability - its the task force. You just can't look at the platform in isolation as you then run the risk of heading into the platform centric debate which often and usually misses the impact that the overall system beings to the fight.

a single large warship on its own is symbolism - its benefit and utility is defined by force element support, the CONOPs and a coherent doctrine for its utility.

in the current russian naval dev climate, that is very very unclear
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
Well, I never said that the RFN carriers r going to be an exact mirror image of USN carriers. But size does matter, & their versions will have Russian characteristics just like Indian & Chinese have/will have theirs. I very much doubt that Russia, with India & PRC, for that matter, will be stuck with STOBAR as long as they have a navy. BTW, China already trains her flight deck personnel in US-style ops using her STOBAR "training carrier"!
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Well, I never said that the RFN carriers r going to be an exact mirror image of USN carriers. But size does matter, & their versions will have Russian characteristics just like Indian & Chinese have/will have theirs. I very much doubt that Russia, with India & PRC, for that matter, will be stuck with STOBAR as long as they have a navy. BTW, China already trains her flight deck personnel in US-style ops using her STOBAR "training carrier"!

You just don't get it.

STOBAR operations have fundamentally different rotation, tempo, surge and end state carriage rates to CATOBAR

you can stick chinese sailors in US navy uniforms, give them the same pay, give then the same training - its irrelevant to the core platform constraints

you're fixated on supercarrier definitions but don't understand the issues around the development - and the constraints between the russian, indian, chinese and american force development.

refer to the last quarter of commentary in my prev response
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In what category would u place FN Charles de Gaulle?
It doesn't look like the future French, Indian, Chinese & I dare say Russian carriers will be = or smaller than her, & even if their op tempo isn't going to be on par with USN CVNs whose capabilities r actually lower than adverized, it may not need to be!
Seriously, I am starting to wonder whether you are now trolling...

that article does not in any way talk about a misrepresentation of capabilities - which is what you are distinctly implying

again, you are missing the issue about weapons effect from the force - you have this platform centric focus which is compounded by also not understanding peacetime and warload rates.

the issue of effect on target is very much about the scenario. eg whats the chances of the CdG fighting in the Spratleys - as opposed to providing support in a NATO operation in the Med?

warfighting is a systems event - its not a platform centric event - and everything you discuss devolves back to platform performance rather than systems capability

when we develop a force its around a systems contruct - treat the carrier as a joint system in its own right - it is then part of a task force which is another version of a joint system - and the task force is also part of a sphere of arrays and sensors which contribute other information to how that TF will elect to fight.

you are dumbing this down to nonsensical levels.

that article is also a tad remiss - its not just about tempo, its about weapons effect - on any given day the CdG is in a better position to get more weapons on target from a given range ring unassisted by organic air refueling than any russian carrier

you have to understand the basics before making the argument.

eg the USN is but half of the penanted strength that it was under Reagan, and yet any one of those single platforms is demonstrably superior to their forebearers - and in some instances double to triple the capability of the prev generation. The author makes no reference to the dramatic changes and advances made wrt to PGM's - developments made along the same timeline

understand the apples and oranges comparisons before talking about fruit
 
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