Russian Air force VS US Air Force

Who wins and WHY?

  • Russian Air Force [plz explain why you think so]

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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Awang se said:
I agree, during the cold war, Russians has the most extensive AD network the world have ever seen. No Western bomber except B-2 can penetrate the network without taking heavy losses. It is multilayered and integrated network.

Its worth reading the following doco on Russian Doctrine Change since the Iraq War. This is a partial copy of my own notes recieved at an air power conference in 2001.

Operational Art

Operational art defines the Soviet’s method of concentrated employment. Operational art describes how Soviet forces are formed, organized, and employed to achieve the military strategy. It encompasses the operational level commanders’ sphere of actions. As we saw earlier, Soviet operational art had become focused on speed, mass, shock, and firepower of preeminent ground forces, with other services in a supporting role. The success of the Allied air operation in the Gulf War caused Soviet military theorists to reassess their old concept of operational art.

Airpower’s Role

One of the first assessments appearing in the Soviet press as combat actions began in the Gulf War regarded airpower’s ascendancy. The Soviets noted that the priority of actions of the branches of the American Armed Forces (as possibly theirs by inference) had changed. Tass military analyst, Vladimir Chernysev commented

The "classic" form of combat gave the main role to land forces in military actions, and the air force supports them. Here [the Gulf War] everything has been different: I would say the basic blows of strategic, decisive significance were struck by the Air Forces.

In May 1991, General Bogdanov of the General Staff chaired a roundtable discussion focused on the initial air operations of the Gulf War. In attendance were Colonel–General I. Maltsev, chief of staff of the PVO (Air Defense Forces); Lieutenant General A. Maliukov, Chief of Staff of the Air Force; Major General A. Gulko from the General Staff; and Rear Admiral A. Pauk from the naval staff. The conferees agreed the coalition had overwhelmed the Iraqi’s long-range missile radars. General Gulko remarked that the allied air operations had not succeeded in achieving the coalition’s goals single-handedly. He did concede that the intent of the air campaign was to create the preconditions necessary for a consolidated victory by all the forces of the coalition with minimal losses. He noted that coalition airpower had achieved air superiority to the extent that they were able to operate with impunity, and that air strikes denied Iraq freedom of action and initiative.

The Soviets saw the Gulf War as a repudiation of Douhet’s ideas about airpower. They did not feel the Gulf War justified building force structure emphasizing strategic bombardment; however, they felt they needed parity in the ground-air-space weapons to present a credible deterrent to a potential threat. Although the Soviets saw success in war as a joint effort of all the services, Lieutenant General of A. E. Maliukov found Douhet’s ideas of attacks against industrial and population centers as relevant to the Gulf War’s outcome. He viewed these strikes as part of the psychological warfare conducted by the Allies to wear down the Iraqi people. He further noted that airpower’s chief contribution was in interdiction, close air support, and air superiority to enhance the success of ground operations. In a May 1991 issue of Military Thought, he said that the initial period of war confirmed the increased role of aviation to combat power. The Gulf War confirmed the impact of aviation on tactical surprise and its execution. More importantly, he said the defensive cast of the Soviet military doctrine at that time implied an air capability able to repel initial attacks and mount its own air operation. He went on to state that this would only occur by protecting the control of the air and giving air commanders the ability to operate independently.

General Maliukov also said the Gulf War "constituted a textbook example of what air supremacy means — both for the country that gained it and for the country ceding it to the opponent." When asked whether he felt the war had reflected a practical application of the American AirLand Battle doctrine, he answered:

I do not think so. There was no classical ‘air-land battle.’ Why? The point is that this war — and here General Dugan comes to mind — was obviously conceived from the outset as an air war to wear out the opponent by means of air strikes, disorganize his command systems, destroy his air defenses, and weaken the ground forces’ striking power. In terms of the choice of objectives, it was more a case of a classic air offense. And these objectives were achieved. Broadly speaking, this is the first time we have seen a war which aviation took care almost entirely of all the main tasks [emphasis added].

The mobility, speed, and accuracy of modern weapons systems are combat multipliers. This factor makes surprise and initiative, especially in the initial period the most important of all military principles. During the Gulf War, the Soviets defined Allied airpower as devastating. Retired Soviet military scientist, Major General Vorobyev underscored the unique role of airpower when he said it was "the decisive role of fire power in destroying the enemy … this has never been demonstrated so clearly in any operation in the past." He called for a "prompt and fundamental review of existing [Soviet] ideas and propositions in the field of tactics and doctrine." He concluded his remarks by noting that Iraq’s defeat was not caused by "any weakness in weapons or combat equipment, but by the habit, dogmatism, stereotype, and conventionalism in the leadership of the troops … And this is a graphic lesson for everybody. This includes our armed forces." Airpower was less effective against small, highly mobile targets, such as Scud launchers; but, on the operational and tactical level, the Iraqis made errors forced on them by the loss of initiative and Allied air superiority. The Soviets concluded that any force trying to defend without mobility, or without the ability to strike a maneuvering enemy from the air, was doomed to fail. The Soviets watched the Allies maneuver freely, deceive the Iraqis, mask the main attack, and effectively strike at the weakest point.

Maneuvers by large ground forces required air superiority. The Soviets described airpower, electronic warfare, and air defense, or the Iraqis’ lack of it, as significantly more important in future wars. The Soviets asserted that the most important forces for the future would be the strategic rocket forces, air forces, and air defense forces. To a certain degree, aircraft assumed the primary role as the most maneuverable and long-range means of fighting, for example, accurate weapons and air superiority destroyed any potential Iraqi combat advantage in tanks. Another General Staff officer commented that the only counter to the massed aviation strikes was a powerful air defense system equipped with the most modern weapons.

For airpower to be effective over any length of time, operational sustainment was imperative. The numbers of sorties the Allies generated each day impressed the Soviets. In their preliminary calculations, the Soviets never thought that the Allies could sustain the sorties actually produced. Large-scale air operations, involving coalition aircrews, sustaining two and a half sorties each day over one and a half months seemed incredible.

The Soviets gave the Allies' air forces high scores for countering Iraq’s long-range radar systems. This caused the Iraqi’s to substitute short-range and television-optical systems for fire control systems. This in turn led the allies to fly higher and at night. The Soviets drew the conclusion that the allies "owned the night," and could operate their air forces with impunity.

The General Staff examined the air operation in a March 1991 issue of Morskoi Sbornik. The article stressed that command of the air made a systematic air campaign possible. Captain First Rank K. Kzheb, of the Soviet Navy, outlined the allied air operation.

The primary stake in the war was placed in the allies’ massive use of their airpower to keep losses on the ground to an absolute minimum. The immediate goal was to disarm, blind, deafen, and decapitate the enemy from the very outset to achieve control of the air. Then, allied airpower was applied at will to systematically the Iraqi strategic infrastructure and "isolate the area of upcoming combat operations, along with concurrent destruction of Iraq’s troops and military equipment.

In the initial period, the air campaign struck Iraqi command and control, air defense, and military-industrial targets. A shift to interdiction aimed at isolating the region of combat operations followed the initial phase. Following the air interdiction phase, the center of gravity for the air operation shifted to the direct support of the ground forces. The Soviets also realized that space was an element of the future battlefield. The Soviets said that for the first time, the battlefield contained a third coordinate, and they believed it had played a decisive role in the Allied victory.

Some observers from the General Staff were not as enthusiastic about airpower’s success as most. Several officers interviewed for the May 1991 Military Thought article stated that the Allies expected too much from the air operation. They thought the Allies expected more decisive results than were actually attained. They attributed "airpower’s failure" to be decisive to the multinational forces devoting too many assets to the destruction of Iraq’s military-industrial and national command assets. They felt this reduced the ordnance available for interdiction and close support the ground forces — a logical conclusion given how most Soviets viewed the relationship between airpower and ground forces. They also thought Iraq’s efforts at tactical deception were effective in diverting strikes. They also felt that no matter how extensive the Allied reconnaissance efforts had been, they had not located all the decisive targets. One officer stated that the air strikes in the initial period only confirmed an old truth that airpower alone could not achieve victory in war. I provide these comments to show that not all the Soviets were completely convinced about airpower’s potential. It is important to note though, that those high ranking officers of the General Staff most influential in developing military doctrine were convinced of airpower’s decisiveness in creating the conditions that ultimately defeated Saddam Hussein’s military.

During a June 1991 Roundtable, Lieutenant General of Aviation Maliukov noted that the Soviet Air Force needed operational, materiel, and technical support as well as modern equipment, to fight and win a future war. "We need an optimum correlation between combat and backup means. Everything must be developed comprehensively and then, when the whole system comes into play, it will produce the corresponding results." Timely procurement concerned air defenders. They contended Soviet military science was in bad shape; however, nothing could ensure the "fastest possible delivery of necessary weapons to the defense structure."

Perhaps the strongest proponent of airpower’s role in the Gulf War was Major General Slipchenko of the General Staff. He noted that the Allied air campaign set the outcome from the opening moments of the Gulf War. He even intimated that the war had cast serious doubt on the relevance of the ground forces as traditionally structured. "The Gulf War supports the fact that air strikes can by themselves form the basis of victory … airpower was responsible for the victory, because air superiority altered the complexion of the war from the very outset."


Technology, Research, and Development

Commander in Chief of the Air Force, Colonel–General Ye. Shaposhnikov noted in an interview that the Gulf War was giving the General Staff an opportunity to observe and evaluate American airpower. This was the first time they were able to make an assessment under real combat conditions on such an unprecedented scale. He noted much had changed since the Vietnam War, and focused on "air and naval- based cruise missiles, F-15 and F-117A ‘Stealth" aircraft, the multipurpose Tornado aircraft, Patriot anti missile complexes, and the accumulation and processing of information."

Dr. V. Tsygichko, head of Moscow’s National Security and Strategic Stability Studies Center admitted at a lecture at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe on March 5, 1991, that models run by the General Staff before the Gulf War had failed to predict the outcome. Additionally, the models had grossly overestimated the coalition’s losses. He blamed this on the modelers not having reliable parameters to assign to the allied weapons. He pointed out their models contained no factors to account for the Iraqi’s poor discipline and morale. Finally, he noted the air campaign lasted considerably longer than most Soviet analysts had predicted. Of extreme importance was the fact that these models contained algorithms based on their previous notions of the nature of future war. The failure of the models repudiated their previous doctrinal base for predicting what the nature of future war might hold. Marshal Achromeyev supported Dr. Tsygichko’s views by affirming the Soviet estimates "were based on classic AirLand Battle doctrine." Increasing the air campaign to 40 days invalidated the projection models. Achromeyev implied the models were based on a central European scenario by stating "The conduct of air operations of such duration against an enemy approximately equal in strength would have been impossible." These excuses show that perhaps this was but one additional short delay on the "Yellow Brick Road."

The General Staff convened another roundtable in mid-March 1991 to evaluate the performance of the Soviet air defense equipment in the Gulf War, and to determine the research and development impacts. Senior officers stifled the formal presentations trying to avoid criticism and contentious issues. Because of this, some of the junior officers attending noted the delegates made most of the interesting and compelling comments "in the lobby." Among the core issues they thought needed attention was the "lamentable condition" of Soviet military science and defense preparations, and the failure of PVO to provide them with "the most modern systems available." They also commented about their need to replace "obsolete models of weapons that accomplish little, as evidenced by the Gulf War, and should be retired"

Influenced by the allies' success in the Gulf War, Defense Minister Grachev listed the following seven priority items for continued research and development: highly mobile troops, army aviation, long-range ACMs, C3I systems, space systems, air defense systems, and strategic arms. As a result of the General Staff’s analysis of the Gulf War, political and military leaders have reached a consensus on maintaining research and development at the expense of procurement as the Russian defense budget shrinks. The Russians believe they cannot "be second best" in stealth and advanced conventional munitions. Experts within Russia noted they were 7–10 years behind in ACMs.


My notes: added to this were:

There is general concern that the prev Russian Doctrine of massed airpower to attempt saturation attacks is going to change dramatically. Current legacy Sov/Russian and Chinese doctrine is undergoing change as they realise that the old paradigms of war fighting have changed irrecoverably. In essence the Russians and Chinese are literally a generation to half a generation behind the US. Building 21st century platforms does not translate to a viable capability. The doctrine change and the tactical change has to occur concurrently or their evolving RMA issues will be unsynchronised and fatally flawed.
 

Gremlin29

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I find it interesting that so many look at the GW1+2 actions as indicators to how future war fighting will occur. And then there's every Air Force generals fantasy that a war can be fought and won with air power alone. Hasn't happened yet, and it never will.
 

gf0012-aust

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The problem is that they look at the use of air in isolation rather than recognise that there are a whole pile of things that have to be happening concurrently. If its effective then those interactions are transparent. When they are transparent, then the advocates forget about their impact and contribution to the successful outcome.

selective vision.
 

shamsi

New Member
gf0012 said:
Awang se said:
By the way, how many aircraft that US lost during GW1?
27 US and 11 Allied out of 65,581 sorties.
232 Iraqi aircraft destroyed
With long range detection, ECM, ECCM, and BVR, U.S has total air superiority in all recent wars. To compare a poorly trained ME force, paralyzed between two no-fly zones is fair?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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shamsi said:
gf0012 said:
Awang se said:
By the way, how many aircraft that US lost during GW1?
27 US and 11 Allied out of 65,581 sorties.
232 Iraqi aircraft destroyed
With long range detection, ECM, ECCM, and BVR, U.S has total air superiority in all recent wars. To compare a poorly trained ME force, paralyzed between two no-fly zones is fair?
I'm quoting numbers - and war is generally totally unfair and in favour of the power that is able to integrate and bring all its resources to bear.

I suspect though that the speed at which Russia, China, France, UK (and in effect most modern militaries) went through their own RMA's post 91 and then again post 99 is a pretty fair indication of how one sided the fight is at the moment.

Both Russian and Chinese military doctrine coming out of their mil academies has changed direction completely. Chinas turn around is enormous.
 

tankboy

New Member
hi,ikm new to this forum.im former army person,i was in the army in the 80s.i was a m1 abrams crewman.anyways about the subject of us airpower vs. russian airpower,theres no doubt we have the edge.during the coldwar the former soviet union and the warsaw pact countries may have been able to give us a run for the money,i dont believe thats the case now.plus,everybody should know that alot of russias jet design and electronic capabilities came from them stealing from us. :eek
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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A piece of trivia for everyone.

Prior to 2000 when there was a big panic about whether the world would go stupid once the millenium cam around (due to electrical clock timers in computers and components), the russians sought international assistance with safeguarding their nukes. It turns out that the majority of their systems were chipped using stolen american timers and controllers.
 

Awang se

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
27, Is that true? You know, sometimes i got a feeling that the US military didn't release the real number of casualties. In some of the events, the number of casualties is impossibly low compare to the intensity of the actions.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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Awang se said:
27, Is that true? You know, sometimes i got a feeling that the US military didn't release the real number of casualties. In some of the events, the number of casualties is impossibly low compare to the intensity of the actions.
Yes, I used to have the link that listed the serial numbers of the aircraft for validation purposes.

The figures aren't impossibly low when you look at how they did the war planning - and how ineffective the Iraqi defense systems became

eg they uploaded viruses into the air traffic control systems
special forces took out some of the data links for the ADS near Kuwait etc..

so they blinded them before they started.
 

mrgenie

New Member
Interesting question

It's debatable which Aircraft is better or worse.
Fact is, an army, air force or navy without proper industry to keep standard and quality on top as well as resupplies secure is as good as destroyed on the outbreak of a war. While Russia on paper has the best technology, it's debatable that in case of war they can maintain their air force and make sure resupplies are continued.
Russia is heavily depending on oil and gas exports to NATO (around 70% of the whole Russian economy) Thus their economy will most likely collapse within a few seconds when the automated financial systems in Russia will understand:"no exports - no money - no maintaining industry"
After that, most of their air force might be good to get into the air once or twice within the next 24 hours, after that.. makes you wonder where the replacement engines should come from and who has to pay for them.
Since NATO is funding all the pensions in Russia, the Russian Army upgrades, the Russian infrastructure, etc.. this of course will stop instantly in case of war..
So I'm pretty sure they can't maintain anything, while at the same time oil and gas imports for NATO totals up to 14% depending on Russia. 65% of current usage can be covered by allies such as Saudi, Nigeria, etc..
Meaning, even if Russia would drop all exports to NATO, NATO can still increase oil and gas up by 50% for several years.

So much the influence of Economy to the Russian air force, it will cripple them!

If Russia however has some reserves on the moon or mars and they would be able to increase their industrial production by factor 20, I wonder how they'd do that and who's got to pay for it, but if they could..
You're talking about an air force that's heavily outdated. I used google earth to check on most of the military installations of Russia.
Unlike NATO where google has hidden everything, in Russia you can check which airplanes they have. Unlike NATO, they're not in bunkers mostly, as they don't have the money for it. You can see over 80% of their air force just sitting on the bases. Only rarely you see any modern fighter aircraft. Most is outdated 1970-1980 stuff. Very good for it's time! And latest developments on paper show the Russians are much better then any other country on the planet.. But, take into account most is outdated.. and what they draw on paper is 1 thing, in reality it's different..
On airshows the Russians like to show-off.. They like to point out how good their stuff is. Not rarely there are 2 versions.. the real military version being crippled by quality standards very low.. and the show-off version for airshows which every single hardware is inspected by hand and most modern diagnostic equipment which they don't use for mass production aircraft. Lada according to Putin is state of the art, well, every winter here in our street in Moscow most lada's either not start at all or need 30minutes heating before they start.. not to be compared to cheap EU cars which also have problems, but at least they start within 30 seconds..
Similar goes for their airplanes, of course Putin says Lada is state of the art and air force is state of the art.. For demonstrations this is true, a few planes are produced at high quality standards.. the rest? well.. I wouldn't bet on it..
Apart from that, the russian engineers are superb! High quality engineers with state of the art designs.. Problem is Russian industry can't mass produce high quality to match the designs..

So, Russian air force has many enemies which are far worse then USAF:
Corruption within the government
Industry that can't uphold quality standards
Industry that can't mass produce quality
Industry that is living from NATO-exports of oil and gas
Government that's funding almost everything from sales of oil and gas to NATO
Air force with a few show-off quality planes and the rest low standard aircraft
Air force which is outdated by 80% of it's numbers

These factors will keep more planes down then can be shot by USAF in case of a conflict.

In short:"Russian Air Force is no match for the USAF, it'll be a few days, and it's over for Russian Air Force"

Same goes for anti-air systems from ground.
Yes, S-300 and S-400 are supreme systems..
Good enough to shoot 50 or 60 NATO planes..
The other 99% of air defense it outdated material..Good to shoot down 0 NATO planes.

Nuclear weapons against USAF?
You could explode nukes in the Atmosphere to shoot down USAF..
Only 1 problem, even the most modern rockets, Baluva, has a standard of:
70% of the rockets fall down on Russian soil and can't deliver the payload during
the tests being made thus far..

So unless Russian industry can upgrade it's quality here, USAF wouldn't even have to attack Russian Air force, as the own Russian forces will most likely cripple Russia itself even worse then any enemy need to do.

basically, under Putin everything is getting even worse then the nineties..
It's a shame, Russia really has good engineers.. But it has even better corrupt politicians and bureaucrats and even more worse industrial managers.

With such a backbone, Russian Air Force is nothing more then a paper tiger good enough to take down small countries as Georgia, but any serious conflict, I doubt Russian Airforce would even be able to combat EU or China..
Probably for a few weeks.. but then it's over..
against the USAF, a few days...

Warning issued: This vs that threads are a violation of current Forum Rules (specifically, rule 3). Continued failure follow forum rules will result in further sanctions.
 
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Haavarla

Active Member
I see this thread is an old one..

gf wrote something about Russian AF doctrines back in 2004.
I'm pretty sure The Russian HQ and MoD has changed their Doctrins for VVS several times by now.

Does not the latest Re-armaments of VVS spill out an much more offensive capability, rather just defensive capabilities.

I'm thinking spessificly of an much more mobile, smaller and dynamic Squadron size units rather then the older structure from post SU.

The nr Airbases and units in VVS has been reduced, as they stand today. It mean they will have to re-shuffle lots of different Sq the other theater if something were to happend. And it have to happend at a very short notice.
 
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mrgenie

New Member
I see this thread is an old one..

gf wrote something about Russian AF doctrines back in 2004.
I'm pretty sure The Russian HQ and MoD has changed their Doctrins for VVS several times by now.

Does not the latest Re-armaments of VVS spill out an much more offensive capability, rather just defensive capabilities.

I'm thinking spessificly of an much more mobile, smaller and dynamic Squadron size units rather then the older structure from post SU.

The nr Airbases and units in VVS has been reduced, as they stand today. It mean they will have to re-shuffle lots of different Sq the other theater if something where to happend. And it have to happend at a very short notice.
Maybe. The father of my sons schoolmate is walks around with this on his uniform: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:18_general-2013.png
He works here in center Moscow, not sure where.
But I had a few talks with him. According to him, Russia would probably be able to scramble a few hundred planes up in the air for a short field campaign. If only EU-NATO countries would attack Russia, Russia would fall back on it's nuclear capabilities simply because even EU-NATO would outmatch Russia's capabilities very soon. There's no way Russia could take up against the united forces of Europe. Russia could outperform the British,French, Germans, Dutch if they came single.. In a united war effort he's pretty sure days of Russian air force would be counted.

About the rearmament, that's mostly PR according to him. Putin also promised S-300 and S-400 units, dozens of them. Only few have been deployed of which every single of them has operating problems. Especially since the manufacturing plant can produce units at a very slow rate, but it can't produce replacement parts that wear off during exercises.

My father in law keeps track of Russian military progress. He's very proud on being Russian, and he should be, Russia has a beautiful culture! But he's not proud on the army, according to him, and he really keeps good track of everything, most of the promised billions by Vladimir Vladimirowitsch is falling in pockets of big car drivers in Moscow and not at the military industry for producing the needs for upgrading and maintaining an army as huge as the Russian.
Russia need to cut personnel and armament, cut tanks, planes, etc.. cut down on corruption, and only then and first then the improvements ordered by Gaswowa would actually improve the capabilities of the Russian Federation. As German engineer I usually only consider the technical aspects.. Russian engineers are very good! Their designs are really outstanding! But it's not just the design, you need the industry that can match the designs. You need the machines that can produce the accuracy to make sure products don't wear off within a few hours.
This is the major drawback of Russian industry, their production techniques are partly from the 1960's some even older. It makes production to take ages (not able in a real war scenario to refit army or air force fast enough to cope with losses) and replacements needed constantly. You can build new planes as Gaswowa wants, but you need the industry capacity for maintenance. Or else you have a plane that goes up in the air only once for 1 mission, and after that it's useless. That's one of the reasons why the flight hours for pilots in Russia are so low compared to China, EU, USA, Japan and others..
It's not the engineering in Russia that's bad, in many field they even outperform EU or US counterparts.. it's the industry and production techniques that's the problem. Also, in most production plants you have aging people working. With aging I mean: 55+ young people with high skills, rather work for commercial companies, foreign, emigrate.. it pays 10-20 times better then government or army production plants. So, even today already this is causing a lot of problems, and these problems simply will increase because there are no young people willing to work for 100-300USD where they can earn 2000 at foreign companies, 4000 if they go abroad, or 10.000 to 10.000.000 if they join the corrupt clan around Gaswowa.
 

Haavarla

Active Member
A rather sorry status there.. Lets leave the army out of this.

I think the Industry behind Russias Aviation sector do fare much better than other defence industries sectors.

There has been signed lots of deals. Most of em are coming along now, even if they has seen delays.

All the problems comes from the 90's situation, but it does not mean they cannot be corrected.
As for the flying hour, they are not that bad, some units are simply more prioritized over other assets.

Even the western AF have their own funding problems, so this is not something that is happening only in Russia as we speak.

I can speak of the sorry state of our Navy here in Norway. We planed to order 7 frigates, which was down sized to five.

Now that we have the five frigates, we only (barely) have two operational and with no main offensive missile yet.
The shortage of sailors make the two only operational in peace time, but impossible to operate with its sceleton cew during war time(futige is a bitch).
One frigate is used for school/training purpose and last two frigates are pretty much doing nothing. I think one is pulled off duty for for budget reasons alone, never mind the shortage of sailors..

Yes sir..
Now i'm pretty sure the 50 or so F-35A on order will face a sorry state of operational serviceability.
It has allready been stated the F-35A will see much less flying hour then the F-16 see today.. now go figure..
 
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mrgenie

New Member
A rather sorry status there.. Lets leave the army out of this.
Well, I meant the defense industry in total.. AF and Army in Russia have the same ranks, troop ranks.. only the navy has their own ranks.

I think the Industry behind Russias Aviation do fare much better than other defence industries sectors.
Definately! Not arguing there, but not near anywhere where EU/USA aviation industry is. Not to mention, Airbus, Boeing, etc have the financial capacity to invest billions in aviation industry. Suchoi, Mig, etc lack these funds.

There has been signed lots of deals. Most of em are coming along now, even if they has seen delays.
Yes, but once again, not near anywhere of US/EU aviation industry.

All the problems comes from the 90's situation, but it does not mean they cannot be corrected.
Although most problems come from the nineties, it's a bad habbit of the current legislation to credit everything bad to the nineties! Many problems are from even before that period where even Soviet Union already faced several problems in funding modernization of the aviation industry as well as several issues that popped up after 1999, i.e. the huge "disappearing of money" which, believe it or not, got even worse after 2002!

As for the flying hour, they are not that bad, some units are simply more prioritized over other assets.
That might be true, but it's wrong prioritizing in my opinion having a world class fighter in the hands of a rookie is of no use. A 2nd class who has 2000 flight hours will win in most cases, unless you have a talent being the rookie of course. But I wouldn't count on the talented, there aren't that many.

Even the western AF have their own funding problems, so this is not something that is happening only in Russia as we speak.
Actually, that's more or less true yes, but not because they can't fund it. Point is, as of 1991-1993, it was clear to most western nations that Soviet Union wouldn't be a match for western air power. Thus the need to improve was much less.
Still, F22 is an oldie designed in the 80ties and got the green light in 1991. But then Soviet Union fell, and there suddenly wasn't the need to rush it anymore.
So the real manufacturing of the first test plane was delayed to 1997. Not because the US didn't have the money, sure all the money for the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc could have been invested in the F22 program, but they simply didn't because there was no need. Even today, Russian and Chinese air forces remain nr. 2 and 3 behind NATO. but if you look at the numbers:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_airforce
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Airforce
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force
note the sheer number of outdated planes in both the Chinese and Russian air forces compared to USAF, it may be clear there is simply no need for the US to really invest money in an AF that already will owe the skies against the 2 biggest opponents. On top of that the US is backed by NATO, Japan, Australia.. for worldwide logistics and thus can operate worldwide (probably the only AF in the world that can launch massive air assaults on global scale)
So, US doesn't need these investments. EU, Australia and Japan that are counting on US support also don't need these boosts.. so it's not really a funding problem, it's more a luxury problem which makes politicians to use the money for other purposes.

Take under consideration, NATO still accounts for roughly around 70% of the global military spending. Not the least to maintain global air superiority.
But even without the US, on local scale I think the French and British air forces shown very clear their capability to respond and very capable of handling air superiority in Iraq, Libya, Yugoslavia. Of course they use US support and have special US warplanes to take care of the difficult tasks, but they are capable of striking at devastating force. Compare this to the Russian Air force which already had severe losses against a tiny puppet state in the Caucasus. Because of the losses, how can a tiny puppet state without state of the art equipment take down high tech Russian warplanes that on paper should be superior, there where several hearings in the Duma as well as some closed door hearings.

The answer is simple:"On paper the planes will be the best in the world and even a 1980 Russian warplane will outperform a F22 on paper, in reality there are other factors not mentioned on the papers!"
The biggest factor of course is industrial quality, I mean production quality.
But also corruption, political leadership putting billions in it's own pockets instead of paying for training missions of their pilots
and other issues.

Don't forget, the designs are really good! But the implementation is bad.
Training lacks..
And btw, the training hour numbers on paper are also forged! They count for maybe 1 fighter group that does stunts and send abroad for shows and showing foreign countries the capabilities of Russian warplanes. 99% of the pilots isn't in this luxury position and simply has to do with very few flight hours.

Here in Russia many things look great on paper! In reality, you can see the money in my street when you're looking at the big cars parking next to our car. It isn't used for what the paper says, it's used for private pockets.
Both inside the industrial production process this happens but even more worse inside the Russian government and air force, army, etc.
Corrupt here is terrible and if it weren't for the oil and gas exports, it would cripple this country instantly, including it's air force.

But the main question was Russian vs American Air force.
Like I pointed out, in a single dogfight there are some pilots with modern planes that can take up against US counterparts and win dogfights..
But if we're talking air force vs air force, we're talking a longer campaign where it's not only the dogfight but the overall performance of all the pilots, the warplanes, the maintenance, the industry behind it, and the support of the economy. And in the overall performance, Russian Air force will be no match for the might of the USAF.
 

Haavarla

Active Member
Lets stop compairing VVS to USAF shall we. Its not very productive, and it does not show us any level true capability between the two.
There is a terminology called "Force Multiplier", which include a whole range of different systems, platforms and training methods.

They operate in a different way. They even has different capability on the different platforms. VVS has different goals, different requirements not only on platform level but also on weapons and systems.

As said earlier VVS also have different doctrines, which in turn means they does not have to operate the same way USAF.

The budget alone means the VVS will have to operate differently vs USAF.
And most importantly, i think VVS has to shrink their AF size further.
In fact it should have been done at a much faster tempo then are currently being done. Focus on their resources on fewer but better/higher operational units and structure.
 
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