Russia - General Discussion.

[ngatimozart]

I agree, transactional approach is currently the best approach with India. India is not yet ready to embrace Western values and way of thinking. It will probably take several generations before they evolve their society to be more in line with what we have in Western countries. Hopefully they will get there in the end, but they need to find the way to enlightenment by themselves.

That's quite an arrogant statement. Who says western values are better than anyone else's? There are some things about western beliefs and values that are good, but equally there are many that are quite despicable. I live within two cultures and there are always conflicts between the two. Being part of a culture colonised by a western nation gives me an insight that many fail to have. Being both Maori and Irish, we experienced the worst of British colonialism, even though there were also benefits as well. Next point define enlightenment? My definition would be completely different to yours, and @Ananda and @Feanor definitions would equally be different to yours, mine, and each others. Your post reeks of cultural imperialism.

 

[seaspear]

I believe we should be careful not to confuse cultural values of countries and their beliefs with the aspirations of countries to develop by legislation laws and agreements setting out conducts for members as per through the U.N charters
United Nations Charter (full text) | United Nations
It might be argued that events have arisen by a U.N member putting their own cultural spin on events to ignore their own obligations as a senior U.N member to wage war

 

[koxinga]

I believe we should be careful not to confuse cultural values of countries and their beliefs with the aspirations of countries to develop by legislation laws and agreements setting out conducts for members as per through the U.N charters
United Nations Charter (full text) | United Nations
It might be argued that events have arisen by a U.N member putting their own cultural spin on events to ignore their own obligations as a senior U.N member to wage war

I fully agree. It is a mistake to conflate that basic/core principles such as one country not invading another country as a "western" value when these are universal. But the degree of response of individual members will be shaped by a combination of the local geopolitical expediency + cultural bias/affinity.

So a country might agreed that the invasion of Ukraine is wrong (basic principle), the response to it will be different.

For Eastern European countries, they see it as existential and hence are willing to give significant military, and financial aid in response. Another country, and we don't have to look too far, just Greece/Turkey, can be on the same page on the issue of invasion with Eastern European countries/and the rest of the EU, but they clearly don't see it in existential terms. And being different isn't wrong.

 

[Vivendi]

Hopefully they will get there in the end, but they need to find the way to enlightenment by themselves.

The text was meant to be sarcastic, and the word "enlightenment" was meant to give a clue about the sarcasm. Given how a number of people reacted it seems I failed to communicate the sarcasm properly. Mea culpa.

 

[Redshift]

I fully agree. It is a mistake to conflate that basic/core principles such as one country not invading another country as a "western" value when these are universal. But the degree of response of individual members will be shaped by a combination of the local geopolitical expediency + cultural bias/affinity.

So a country might agreed that the invasion of Ukraine is wrong (basic principle), the response to it will be different.

For Eastern European countries, they see it as existential and hence are willing to give significant military, and financial aid in response. Another country, and we don't have to look too far, just Greece/Turkey, can be on the same page on the issue of invasion with Eastern European countries/and the rest of the EU, but they clearly don't see it in existential terms. And being different isn't wrong.

I think that I would suggest that being different isn't NECESSARILY wrong, but it can actually still be wrong

 

[koxinga]

There isn't sufficient context to your reply and elaboration is appreciated.

 

[seaspear]

I hope this article may be viewed accurately enough to explain some of the Russian culture and its origins it does suggest that modern Russian youth may have a different viewpoint to the older generation ,but we see that elsewhere lol
Russian Culture - Core Concepts — Cultural Atlas (sbs.com.au)

 

[KipPotapych]

In the past couple of days, there have been some speculations if Merkava’s are going to end up in Ukraine.

Israel's Merkava Tank Has Possible Export Customer In Europe

Israel is negotiating sales of Merkavas with two countries, including one in Europe, prompting speculation about a possible deal for Ukraine.

www.thedrive.com

Personally, I think it is a very long shot and unlikely.

 

[Feanor]

In the past couple of days, there have been some speculations if Merkava’s are going to end up in Ukraine.

Israel's Merkava Tank Has Possible Export Customer In Europe

Israel is negotiating sales of Merkavas with two countries, including one in Europe, prompting speculation about a possible deal for Ukraine.

www.thedrive.com

Personally, I think it is a very long shot and unlikely.

CAST thinks it's either Cyprus or Croatia, which would free up either M-84s or T-80Us for Ukraine.

 

[KipPotapych]

^ Thanks for moving the post. Wasn’t sure if it belonged here or in the war thread.

That would make more sense.

 

[Capt. Ironpants]

CAST thinks it's either Cyprus or Croatia, which would free up either M-84s or T-80Us for Ukraine.

I've seen some posts on social media by Croatian army guys hyping this, but that means nothing more than "rumors abound". Anyone interested can search on " Hrvatska Vojska" and "Merkava" I suppose. It will indeed be interesting to learn who the real buyer is.

 

[Pukovnik7]

I've seen some posts on social media by Croatian army guys hyping this, but that means nothing more than "rumors abound". Anyone interested can search on " Hrvatska Vojska" and "Merkava" I suppose. It will indeed be interesting to learn who the real buyer is.

I am Croatian, and while I am not exactly very religious about following the media, I have not noticed anything about acquiring Merkavas right now. And news like that would likely be front page news.

In fact, while there was some talk of new tanks for the Croatian Army prior to this mess in Ukraine, the only candidates mentioned were German Leopard 2 and French Leclerc. But considering Ukrainian needs, I think either of these is unlikely.

 

[John Fedup]

I am Croatian, and while I am not exactly very religious about following the media, I have not noticed anything about acquiring Merkavas right now. And news like that would likely be front page news.

In fact, while there was some talk of new tanks for the Croatian Army prior to this mess in Ukraine, the only candidates mentioned were German Leopard 2 and French Leclerc. But considering Ukrainian needs, I think either of these is unlikely.

SK would be happy to supply.

 

[Ananda]

"이스라엘도 유럽에 탱크 수백대 수출"...한국과 치열한 경쟁 예고?

[서울와이어 김종현 기자] 유럽 무기시장에서 존재감을 키우는 K-방산에 이스라엘이 강력한 경쟁자로 부상할 조짐이다.16일 유럽언론에 따르면 이스라엘 국방부의 국제협력국장인 야이르 쿨라스는 한 언론과 인터뷰에서 "2개 국가와 구형 메르카바 탱크를 판매하는 협상을 진행중이며 그 중 하나는

www.seoulwire.com

South Korean media already put articles on Merkava become K2 competitors. Honestly with Nexter merge with KMW and Rheinmettal 'rumours' looking for new partner, Italian and UK seems not going to build new MBT, perhaps should also consider Turkiye Altay.

ROK forums and media now also talk how far their build capacities to entertain new customers. Perhaps older K1 also can be considered if ROK decide to put it on Export.

 

[contricusc]

EU countries should not import tanks and heavy weapons in general from outside EU. This is a strategic industry and EU countries should support the very few EU producers left. Otherwise, in a few decades there will be no European defence industry.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

EU countries should not import tanks and heavy weapons in general from outside EU. This is a strategic industry and EU countries should support the very few EU producers left. Otherwise, in a few decades there will be no European defence industry.

That's a very zero-sum attitude, along the lines of people who suggest more trade barriers to protect local industry. Trade and competition is good, providing there are minimum standards involved. China and North Korea aren't undercutting NATO defence contractors - the competition is largely from within NATO or friendly first-world countries.

Countries like Poland shouldn't be limited to buying French or German just because it suits French and German companies. If French and German companies want an EU-wide defence industry, they need to sell shares so they're evenly owned across the EU, with profits and jobs shared.

It's possible to compete internationally. UK land-based companies lost their business due to over-specialising and/or offering underwhelming products. In contrast the naval, missile and aerospace businesses are doing better than they have for several decades, with GCAP due to get their sixth-gen plane in the air 5+ years ahead of FCAS.

Competition spurs innovation. In contast protectionism leads to stagnation.

 

[John Fedup]

That's a very zero-sum attitude, along the lines of people who suggest more trade barriers to protect local industry. Trade and competition is good, providing there are minimum standards involved. China and North Korea aren't undercutting NATO defence contractors - the competition is largely from within NATO or friendly first-world countries.

Countries like Poland shouldn't be limited to buying French or German just because it suits French and German companies. If French and German companies want an EU-wide defence industry, they need to sell shares so they're evenly owned across the EU, with profits and jobs shared.

It's possible to compete internationally. UK land-based companies lost their business due to over-specialising and/or offering underwhelming products. In contrast the naval, missile and aerospace businesses are doing better than they have for several decades, with GCAP due to get their sixth-gen plane in the air 5+ years ahead of FCAS.

Competition spurs innovation. In contast protectionism leads to stagnation.

Competition is good for military kit…as long as your supply chain is secure. Given the geopolitical situation in the Pacific and the pending unstable situation with Trump looming in 2024, a EU defence industry is important.

 

[seaspear]

Is there not a case for having strategic industries that you do protect ? there is a difference between the export version and domestic versions of weapons ?

 

[Feanor]

That's a very zero-sum attitude, along the lines of people who suggest more trade barriers to protect local industry. Trade and competition is good, providing there are minimum standards involved. China and North Korea aren't undercutting NATO defence contractors - the competition is largely from within NATO or friendly first-world countries.

Countries like Poland shouldn't be limited to buying French or German just because it suits French and German companies. If French and German companies want an EU-wide defence industry, they need to sell shares so they're evenly owned across the EU, with profits and jobs shared.

It's possible to compete internationally. UK land-based companies lost their business due to over-specialising and/or offering underwhelming products. In contrast the naval, missile and aerospace businesses are doing better than they have for several decades, with GCAP due to get their sixth-gen plane in the air 5+ years ahead of FCAS.

Competition spurs innovation. In contast protectionism leads to stagnation.

This is true in principle but can be problematic in practice, especially when taking to the logical extreme. If you let domestic capabilities decay under the impression that you'll always be able to buy from abroad and one day discover that that's not the case, you will have huge problems. Now based on the size of the country and the national economy you may be more or less able to produce domestically but there is a reason to retain strategic industrial capabilities even if they don't make economic sense. The same way that a healthcare system should have extra capacity that's not always needed when things are well but can be tapped when a global pandemic breaks out, a national defense industry needs to be able to support a national war effort when called upon to do so. Otherwise one ends up in the awkward position of donating literally irreplaceable kit to Ukraine and then having to hope that you won't need it yourself. The question of what Poland should buy is a complicated one, and Poland's relationship with the rest of the EU has gotten considerably rockier in recent years. So there are things at play here beyond just the pure economic considerations of defense industries.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

If you let domestic capabilities decay under the impression that you'll always be able to buy from abroad and one day discover that that's not the case, you will have huge problems.

What do you do if you don't have a domestic manufacturer in the first place? Only a handful of countries can make top-tier tanks, but far more want them.

It doesn't benefit EU states to be reliant on French and German tanks - or indeed in the future MGCS which may need both French and German approval for export. As you say, Poland doesn't have great relations with France and Germany. Being reliant on them for tanks and armoured vehicles would give them far more power within the EU.