Royal Norwegian Air Force news and discussion

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well, was to be expected, as they're supposed to be replaced by 4 new C-130J.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Well, we really can't know the price of the Gripen NG. There hasen't been build one yet, so how can they know the final price of something, that hasen't even been developed ?

The Gripen NG is not the same plane as the original Gripen. The JSF is flying and the Eurofighter is in production, non of which the Gripen NG is.
The predicted full-rate production JSF price is not based on the price of those now building. It assumes a very large reduction in the cost of building, & although I'm sure LM bases that prediction on a lot of carefully worked calculations, that introduces uncertainty.

The Gripen NG is a derivative aircraft, rather than a completely new design, & many of the parts which are different from the Gripen C/D are off the shelf or derivative, easing the task of prediction. Also, the Gripen demo (which is flying) should be giving SAAB information.

Given the above, if, for the sake of argument, we assume SAAB & Lockheed Martin are equally good at predicting costs, then I suggest the current predicted prices of Gripen NG & JSF should not differ greatly in accuracy. I wouldn't like to guess which is more accurate.

But we're veering off-topic . . .
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The Gripen NG is a derivative aircraft, rather than a completely new design, & many of the parts which are different from the Gripen C/D are off the shelf or derivative, easing the task of prediction. Also, the Gripen demo (which is flying) should be giving SAAB information.

But we're veering off-topic . . .
Personally I have to disagree about the Gripen NG. As I understand it, one of the capabilities which is to change in the NG is the fuel load and fraction. Between changing the engine, and then the fuel tank as well as the avionics, there would have to be changes to the airframe as well. The Gripen NG might be designed and built off of the Gripen C/D, but in changing the airframe around, and with the potential for such changes alter the aircraft performance in flight, etc the output is a new aircraft. There will likely be a number of similarities and commonalities between the Gripen and Gripen NG, but they are still different aircraft. IMV it would be a relationship not unlike that of the F/A-18 A/B/C/D Hornet to the F/A-18 E/F Superhornet.

And agreed, this is somewhat off topic.

-Cheers
 

METEORSWARM

New Member
EADS withdrew from the contest Norwegian months ago in Norway is every indication to the JSF from the start and the competition really an image to the public to say that there is a competition but decisions are taken at the outset by the JSF, Norway came knocking EADS to return to competition at which they are "no thanks".EADS does not like to waste time when you only have 2 aircraft to check (Gripen / efa) as the JSF is the year 2016 within 8 years, which their costs rose much more than what they say now.



http://www.flightglobal.com/article...ay-backs-jsf-selection-rejects-gripen-ng.html
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Personally I have to disagree about the Gripen NG. As I understand it, one of the capabilities which is to change in the NG is the fuel load and fraction. Between changing the engine, and then the fuel tank as well as the avionics, there would have to be changes to the airframe as well. The Gripen NG might be designed and built off of the Gripen C/D, but in changing the airframe around, and with the potential for such changes alter the aircraft performance in flight, etc the output is a new aircraft. There will likely be a number of similarities and commonalities between the Gripen and Gripen NG, but they are still different aircraft. IMV it would be a relationship not unlike that of the F/A-18 A/B/C/D Hornet to the F/A-18 E/F Superhornet.

And agreed, this is somewhat off topic.

-Cheers
I disagree -- the changes to the airframe were insignificant, this was already done with one Gripen D, with several successful test flights. Changes in aircraft performance were noted but that was due to 20% increase in thrust :) Space for extra fuel was added by relocating the landing gear. The comparison Hornet - SH is therefore not quite valid.

The Swedes are very upset about the cost estimates however perhaps this now becomes a bit clearer:

http://www.dagsavisen.no/innenriks/article382961.ece

"Saab confirms that the costs for the swedish planes is 55 billion NOK. This comprises 58 planes over 30 years. This includes everything: operations, fuel, upgrades, etc.

Defence minister Strøm-Erichsen: I am sceptical about this. I do not know what figures they are refering to but we have in our figures included all costs like buildings and constructions, bases, logistics, training and operations."

It seems the differences in the Swedish and Norwegian calculations was in the infrastructure costs -- I am a bit surprised those were included since I would assume those would be similar for both aircrafts?

Presumably the same costs were also included in the F-35 figures. So again this means that it's not Gripen that is expensive to operate actually it's F-35 that is very very cheap to operate. It beats me why anybody would even consider a 4. gen fighter jet after this (unless the US refuses to sell it of course...). Gripen, Rafale, Eurofighter, SU-35, etc. they all lose compared to the F-35 not just in terms of capabilities and fly-away price but also in terms of TCO.


Anyway, I agree this is now off topic, and I will not write more about this here.

V
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
OK, final comment on cost, for clarity, numbers from recommendation and consultancy reports.

Cost, Bn NOK, fly-away
48 F-35A -> 18
48 Gripen NG -> 24

Cost, Bn NOK, vendor LCC (What the customer pays SAAB/LM over 30 year lifetime)
56 F-35A -> 50
58 Gripen NG -> 55 (this number has been put out by SAAB in public)

Cost, Bn NOK, TCO
56 F-35A -> 145 (at P50, 165 at P85 and 125 at P15)
58 Gripen NG -> 165-175 (P50?)

Now check out the attachment.

*These are "acquisition phase costs" not LCC. My bad.
 
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ting

New Member
So far, the discussion in this thread has really only concentrated on fighter aircraft, revolving (devolving?) around the F-35 JSF and the proposed Gripen NG. My personal feeling is that in selecting the F-35, Norway will have gotten the aircraft that best suits their needs in the near- and longer-term future.

An area of the RNoAF that has not really been looked at is their possession of force multipliers and supporting assets. Given the increase in effectiveness these can give an air force, and the growing number of countries that will possess them, it seems sensible (to me) to look at this.

At present, the transport capability seems to be in transition. The 6 C-130H Hercules are being retired, to be replaced with 4 C-130J Hercs. While the -J is more capable than the -H was, I question the decrease in numbers. I would think that, even with the increased capacity of a -J, a decrease in total numbers a third would represent a drop in total available capacity. This at a time when I would expect Norway to have more involvement in issues away from Norwegian soil and thus have an increase in transportation requirements. In a similar vein, the various helicopters used (Bell 412, Lynx and Sea King) appear set for replacement with NH-90 helicopters. On an individual helicopter level it is a boost in capability. However, I think as a total force, it represents a decline in capability, as ~36 helicopters are being replaced by 14 (AFAIK).

My personal feeling is that Norway would be well served by either increasing the numbers ordered, or placing follow-on orders. For the transport aircraft, ordering perhaps an additional 2+ C-130J Hercules (or even better, KC-130J) or maybe 4-6 C-27J Spartan/G.222. Another possibility (assuming it does get completed) is to order 2 A400M or even A330 MRTT. Assuming Norway does engage in foreign deployments, they will need some sort of transport capability able to support such deployments as well as 'local' needs. Adding a capability like AAR would just make such aircraft that much more useful to Norway and their allies.

For helicopters, I do not think 14 enough, particularly since they would provide utility as well as SAR roles. The current force has 18 for each role, the planned replacement would have less than that number to fufill either role. Assuming the standard figure of one third available for ops at any one time, that might mean only 5 NH90 helicopters vs. the current 4 Sea Kings, 2 Lynx and 6 Bell 412s. I would think a second helicopter order, either of additional NH-90s, or perhaps a larger helicopter design like the EH-101 Merlin or CH-47 Chinook or Sikorsky S-92.

I am curious what others think about the transport and helicopter support, or if anyone has additional figures other than the ones I have come across.

-Cheers
First. The transport capability will in the future be 2 130j`s and 2 130j-30s. I am 90% shure of this mix, however it`s difficult to get any clear info in the media, since they ignore the versions when they wright about it. If you add the cooperation agreement in regards to the c-17, in wich Norway has a large stake, I think you get an increase in availability compared to the 6 old workhorses that are being replaced.

second Helicopters
You`we got very good questions, sadly the answers in this thread have been only partially correct. So here comes my understanding of it.
Current orders are for 6 (asw)NFH. These are not replacements for anything but are a new capability. They are an integral part of the 5 new frigates. The old frigates did`nt have a helicopter.
Also on order are 8(sar?)NFH`s for the coast guard. They will be used in ship bourne ops from Coast guard vessels. They are replacing 6 lynx helicopters. Hence an increase in both quality an quantity.

Sea king replacement.
The air force wanted to replace the sea king (land based SAR) with the NH-90. This is why Norway has options for aditional nh-90s. The option expired last year, but has afaik been renewed indefinetly. What happened here is that the ministry of justice is the responsible department for land based sar, while the air force delivers the capability. The ministry of Justice wants to have a new competition for the delivery of this service, however the choise might still be the NH-90 and the air force. This could be interdepartemental infighting, however since the NH-90 is so late, they can just as well take the time they need to figure out whats what. There is a high availability of private sar helicopters in Norway since the offshore oil companies are obligated to have them available, so the sea kings are not the only asset available for SAR duty at any given time.

Bell 412sp
These helicopters are used in the utility role. I think they were delivered between 1987-1990, so they are not that old. The army is in need of more helicopters, so probably they will be replaced by a bigger number of helicopters. My guess is that the nh-90 is a good bet as a replacement. However with the nh-90 programme way behind schedule, there is not much point in fretting about it at this time.

So afaik the situation is this
old_______________new
6 c-130 E/H_______2 c130j + 2 c130j-30 in addition to the c-17 coop

6 Lynx Mk86_______8 nh-90NFH(sar) for coast guard ships

-----------________6 nh-90NFH(asw) for the 5 new frigates

12 Sea King Mk 43B_unknown, ioc 2011-2014 competition ongoing

18 Bell 412 SP______unknown

In addition, the air force have(had?) additional squadrons of requisitioned private helicopters and pilots in case of a mobilization.
 

Dalregementet

New Member
OK, final comment on cost, for clarity, numbers from recommendation and consultancy reports.

Cost, Bn NOK, fly-away
48 F-35A -> 18
48 Gripen NG -> 24

Cost, Bn NOK, vendor LCC (What the customer pays SAAB/LM over 30 year lifetime)
56 F-35A -> 50
58 Gripen NG -> 55 (this number has been put out by SAAB in public)

Cost, Bn NOK, TCO
56 F-35A -> 145 (at P50, 165 at P85 and 125 at P15)
58 Gripen NG -> 165-175 (P50?)

Now check out the attachment.

*These are "acquisition phase costs" not LCC. My bad.
Better to wait with the speculations. Saab will soon get hold on of how the norwegians have calculated and how they have created their battle scenarios and then Saab will comment that. I think the Swedish/Saab reaction then will be very aggressive and Norway will take some damage in the process, it's inevitable.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Better to wait with the speculations. Saab will soon get hold on of how the norwegians have calculated and how they have created their battle scenarios and then Saab will comment that. I think the Swedish/Saab reaction then will be very aggressive and Norway will take some damage in the process, it's inevitable.
I am waiting - these are not speculations. These are only the numbers the Norwegians arrive at in their reports, except the 55 bn kr acquisition phase cost for the Gripen NG which SAAB has made public. SAAB has disputed these numbers so far, however the FMV will not comment before they've been briefed by the Norwegians.
 

Dalregementet

New Member
Where do you have any proof that the public opinion was for the Gripen? I've never seen a serious poll saying this in norwegian media.

Only one political party has voiced an opinion that they prefered a cooperation with Sweden and that's a party with 6-8% of the votes (SV) that also happens to be in the coalition government (hence my previous comment on need for showing that choosing the JSF was both the best both economical and capability wise). All other parties in the parlament have had a pragmatic view on the issue that the best package was to be chosen.
Here´s one - http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/1.6308918

If you don´t consider Norways state television, NRK, and Norstat as serious then you of course are right.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Here´s one - http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/1.6308918

If you don´t consider Norways state television, NRK, and Norstat as serious then you of course are right.
I went and read a translated version of the page. A few things worth noting. Some 45% of those respondents polled had No Opinion, while 37% were for a Swedish solution and 18% for an American solution. With that large a % of no opinion... there is no 'mandate' as to which platform is appropriate.
Also worth noting, there is no mention of a margin of error in the poll. Given that and the various ways a question can be asked to assist in pre-determining the answer, I have to question the actual relevance of the poll to what the Norwegian public is actually interested in.

Not to get political, but for those interested in learning more about how a poll can be manipulated, do searchs for 'push polling' and/or searchs on polls conducted during the recent US presidential election.

Reading further down in the article, a different political party rightly states that selection of fighters is not the sort of thing appropriate for polls.

Given that the general public relies on the media for information, and how often mass media gets defence issues incorrect or inaccurate (calling an APC a tank, etc) as well as not having access to classified info on system capabilities or mission requirements, the public as a whole is not in a position to know what would best suit their nations' requirements.

-Cheers
 

B3LA

Banned Member
A fair trial.

Swedish state television claimed today that internal Norwegian auditors
have reached the conclusion that the JAS-JSF competition was phoney and the decision from the beginning was in JSFs favour. I am truly chocked.
Have any of you seen any official Norweigian references to this claim ?

Also...there has been numerous reporting about this deal in Swedish and in Norwegian newspapers, but I have not been able to read anything in the American papers (except of course in the flight/military magazines)

So the conclusion must be that either it was of no importance to the US, or it was never any doubt which fighters Norway would order?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Swedish state television claimed today that internal Norwegian auditors
have reached the conclusion that the JAS-JSF competition was phoney and the decision from the beginning was in JSFs favour. I am truly chocked.
Have any of you seen any official Norweigian references to this claim ?

Also...there has been numerous reporting about this deal in Swedish and in Norwegian newspapers, but I have not been able to read anything in the American papers (except of course in the flight/military magazines)

So the conclusion must be that either it was of no importance to the US, or it was never any doubt which fighters Norway would order?
To be honest, aside from within trade or specialty publications, most outside defence purchases do not really register in US media. Given the recent US media climate (financial issues, bank collapses & US presidential election) many outside/non-US events have not registered.

The recent near-bankruptcy of Iceland, which IMO is of significantly more importance than which replacement fight Norway choses, received a little bit of reporting in the mass media, but not much.

As for the claims made on Swedish state tv... We may very well have to wait until info gets released as to what criteria Norway used to judge the aircraft. If Norway was looking to purchase a 5th Gen aircraft that is planned to be viable until the 2040-ish time frame, then there is really only one viable contender for that at present.

IMO the better of the two aircraft in overall performance is the F-35 and that is a position that I think most would agree on, and Norway seemed to think it appropriate for them. The question we are not in a position to answer is if the Gripen NG would meet Norway's requirements sufficiently, and with an acceptable cost.

-Cheers
 

Dalregementet

New Member
I went and read a translated version of the page. A few things worth noting. Some 45% of those respondents polled had No Opinion, while 37% were for a Swedish solution and 18% for an American solution. With that large a % of no opinion... there is no 'mandate' as to which platform is appropriate.
Also worth noting, there is no mention of a margin of error in the poll. Given that and the various ways a question can be asked to assist in pre-determining the answer, I have to question the actual relevance of the poll to what the Norwegian public is actually interested in.

Not to get political, but for those interested in learning more about how a poll can be manipulated, do searchs for 'push polling' and/or searchs on polls conducted during the recent US presidential election.

Reading further down in the article, a different political party rightly states that selection of fighters is not the sort of thing appropriate for polls.

Given that the general public relies on the media for information, and how often mass media gets defence issues incorrect or inaccurate (calling an APC a tank, etc) as well as not having access to classified info on system capabilities or mission requirements, the public as a whole is not in a position to know what would best suit their nations' requirements.

-Cheers
This is matbe a bit off topic so we can end this discussion after this. That 45% of the population didn't have an opinion is probably because they are not interested at all in defence matters. In this years US public election, 61.4% voted, i.e 39.6% did not vote and that in a presidential election. In Sweden that figure is 80.4% and in Norway 77,4. So, I would say that if 55% of the norwegians have an opinion in this question then that is a high figure.

Cheers to you too!
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Need I remind everyone why the original Gripen thread was locked??

seriously, if people are going to base tactical and strategic purchases on newspaper commentary, then thats a sad indictment on the quality of debate. for a stellar example of that model you only have to look at australia and the damage that APA caused not only to the maturity and quality of debate, but the real issue that they damaged potential flow on work for industry due to ideological irresponsibility. Its why technical and military procurement decisions aren't based around journalists opinions. (thank goodness for that, otherwise in australia we would have made everyone in the military a defacto policemen or bushfire season fireman.)

be that as it may the long and the short however of this threads continuing survival is simple. ie stay on topic.
 
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longbow

New Member
Swedish state television claimed today that internal Norwegian auditors
have reached the conclusion that the JAS-JSF competition was phoney and the decision from the beginning was in JSFs favour. I am truly chocked.
Have any of you seen any official Norweigian references to this claim ?

Also...there has been numerous reporting about this deal in Swedish and in Norwegian newspapers, but I have not been able to read anything in the American papers (except of course in the flight/military magazines)

So the conclusion must be that either it was of no importance to the US, or it was never any doubt which fighters Norway would order?
There have been a lot of rumors about the deal, and at the momet "defence-experts" seems to be creeping out of the woodwork(in norway)! We have some Carlo Kopp-type "experts" i Norway, and one of them was heavily quoted by the swedish tv-channel you are refering to - they seemed to base their entire report on his ramblings. This "expert" (Jon Bingen) even went public in saying that the F-35 would never be produced(even though AA-1 has been flying for some time), and that the F-35 would be so expensive that we would have to shut down the entire army if we bought it...

It is imposible for the sources used in that newsflash to know anything at all about all the classified stuff that made the goverment choose F-35. There is nothing new in the report, just a rehash of _opinions_ made by people who don't think we should buy the F-35.

I do however belive that we will see more stuff like this in the media, because off the information vacum and the fact that swedish national pride has been hurt. Personaly I'm refusing to have any other opinion about this issue than that i will wait for CREDIBLE sources. It will come. Something will get into the public domain after the Norwegian MOD have "debriefed" the Swedish MOD about their choice. Future Gripen orders could hinge on percieved competetiveness on price and capability. I think Saab and their partners need a need a firm wellinformed and public rebuttal of the norwegian findings.
 

JWCook

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Well you may not count me as a credible source but there are reports of a huge 'risk' cost that was attached to the Gripen bid by the Norwegians.

This additional cost is in the order of 3x the total purchase price:confused:, and I don't think that the JSF attracted anywhere near that amount.

From these reports (if proved true) it does seem there were some 'creative' applications of risk assessment were made in favour of one jet.

Cheers
 
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