Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
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There would likely be some differing support requirements; things such as external power voltage and capacity, plus differing stores load outs etc in the case of the Merlin. None of these would be in any way insurmountable.
The Mogamis already embark the SH-60K, a Japanese version of the Seahawk. Again, there are likely to be some differences to the MH-60R (the 60K is physically a bigger aircraft, for a start with) but these will probably be minor and limited to spares packages and such. However, as noted, the RAN will have already have dealt with those.
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I’m not so sure. A Mogami built in Japan might actually be cheaper than a T31, properly equipped, built in, say, the UK. While it is always difficult to compare warship acquisition costs across countries, the available cost of a Mogami for the JMSDF is about 50 billion Yen, or roughly $450 million US. That’s not much more, in roughly the same year currency, than the cost the RN quoted for the T31 - and we know that price excluded quite a lot of GFE.
Royal Danish Navy looking building Type 31 (A-140) they current use MH-60R helicopters so wouldn't think that would be that much of issue .
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
With less crew... but to last 40 years vs 30... Logistics with Australia would probably work out cheaper over all for the Mogami...
if they choose theType31 AH140 and the question of the MH-60R I very much doubt that would be an issue
if they choose theType31 AH140 and the question of the MH-60R I very much doubt that would be an issue
Probably larger questions to address. Such as what path the RNZN takes with respect to surface to air weapons and how they are launched. They pivoted away from Mk.41 / sea sparrow to the “mushroom farm” and CAMM.
Whether they look at an ExLS type system and run CAMM from Mk.41 or pay to have “mushroom farms” installed on either Mogami or AH140, either way is going to be expensive and require substantial integration work. Or pivot away from CAMM and back to ESSM. Less integration work required (nil actually as it will already be sorted on Mogami by then) but RNZN will be acquiring the capability from scratch and what then to do with the investment in CAMM?
Doesn’t change the problem, but does add a new missile and more complexity and cost into the mix…
If NZ are to replace the ANZACs with a major warship, the Mogami looks to be the obvious choice on many levels.
These are a send into harms way asset.
One would want a common platform to what your big neighbour has across the ditch in time of conflict.
That includes the weapons and sensors on the vessel.
NZ needs to recognise that you pay tax with too much individuality.
Looks nice in peace time but warships do both peace and war.
The cheque book needs to afford at least three majors or alternatively NZs fleet requires a different mix of assets.
Cheers S
These are a send into harms way asset.
One would want a common platform to what your big neighbour has across the ditch in time of conflict.
That includes the weapons and sensors on the vessel.
NZ needs to recognise that you pay tax with too much individuality.
Looks nice in peace time but warships do both peace and war.
The cheque book needs to afford at least three majors or alternatively NZs fleet requires a different mix of assets.
Cheers S
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They should go mogami. 3 ships.
Then load them with ESSM. 64 per ship.
Then set up a ESSM refurbishment centre. They are solid rocket motors, so just manufacture slow rate replacement. Also look at acquiring NASAM and these fire ESSM body missiles with AIM guidance. So NZ could low rate produce/restock these as well. This doesn't mean a completely sovereign production facilities, but it does mean that most of NZ defence budget ongoing stays at home, there is more sovereign capacity, and in a surge situation more rocket bodies can be made. NZ already has a fledging rocket/space industry, such investment as solid rocket booster capability may be civilian complimentary. Because of one type, there are huge advantages. ESSM Blk II is a bloody good package, with range. CAMM and CAMM-ER advantages don't seem so mind blowing, Particularly when NZ could be sailing a ship with 128 missiles. Combined with AU, there could be an ANZAC sovereign supply chain. But both nations have complimentary and supporting capacity.
I would just sell CAMM with the ships who ever buys them. Chile or someone. Someone would be interested. Being euro, they are easier to sell with the ship.
Choosing a ship because you happen to own a few dozen older missile of a type seems silly. Will NZ invest in a war stock of over 1000 CAMM to keep locally in NZ? Because no one else regionally will have a stockpile. At least with ESSM, NZ could lean on AU or JP ESSM (or US or other US allied regional) stockpiles if they had to. These are all around the region.
The other option is hit the Japanese up for Type 23 missiles. Hit the Japanese up for at least a local maintenance and perhaps a some Japanese missiles located in NZ maintained by NZ. A bit of out of country insurance.
And that's the thing, it may require significant funding to even build it out as advertised. Uk procurement is notoriously flaky when it comes to money, and until hulls are in water with the actual weapons FOC as promised it contains significant risk (mostly Political in the Type 31).
I think this is the key aspect of the Mogami for NZ. Its cheaper to operate. Cheaper to own. Upgrades will be heavily and readily paid for by AU/JP. NZ will get its pick (competitive) of experienced Mogami yard operators for upgrades. Throw in Japan's huge fleet, Australia very large fleet and training and spares logistics hub, regional support is at an all time high. Newer very impressive design and fitout. The low crew requirement and the long life of the ships. Its a tough package.
The Japanese are keen to please and NZ would be exactly the bluechip customer they want to lock in after AU. A small, advanced operator, with high confidence and low risk. I think NZ would get a good deal on such ships.
Mogami not cheap ship look what Australia payment is for first 3 frigates and upgrades are restricted. The Type 31 is more suitable for NZ because of modular system but if go down this road must be 3 or is no advantage . For CAMM missiles NZ has about 200 in-stock last count.
A lot will depend on who is in government and the governments perceived threat. The current mob will go for the cheapest option and the smallest number they think they can get away with. Currently there is only a small amount of publicity regarding defence and it is not getting much traction in the lead up to the election so I think that at this time the likely outcome would be only two units ordered. There is so much that defence needs and a very limited pool of money allocated that more than this is unlikely under the current government and the other mob will just go with the flo in regard to defence.
Sad probably right means our Government has learnt nothing . When NZ had both frigates upgraded in Canada we left one operational OPV to patrol due to delays . All our current ship's have been run hard and with so few ship's that why in this situation.
Mogami isn't cheap, it is good value, its high end capability for very reasonable money to purchase, and extremely good value to operate, but it is not cheap. It is highly likely to be cheaper than any other option in that category to operate and own. However in NZ case the need for 3 ships would IMO out weigh almost everything else entirely. The Type 31 for example could be delivered very bare in terms of weapons and fit out, but if it allows 3 ships it could be worth it IMO.
Mogami is modular enough. The issue with Mogami is Japan has spent the money intergrating everything. Which is awesome, which is why you can crew it with 20-30 less people. But that intergration means changing is much harder and more expensive. So instead of having different people sitting at different consoles, 3-4 people could sit at the same flexible consoles and control the whole ship. Rather than have 20-30 people sitting at specialist consoles. Its not magic, its money and engineering.
But mogamis sensors, are top notch. Mogamis weapons, are, top notch. Mogamis hotel and powertrain are top notch. There is in fact very little to gain by changing these out, its not the 1950/60/70/80/90/00/10 anymore, where rapid developments were happening across all of these. It has growth margins, it has weapons that can be upgraded (SM-6, ESSM, LRASM, TLAM, NSM are munitions getting regular upgrades). It has dismount capbility in helicopters and drones that can easily be upgraded.
The core of the ship, probably leave for the life time unless Japan/AU does a full refresh. They will amortise that cost over a fleet(s) of two dozen ships.
The age of higglity piggily ships with a grubbings of different unintegrated systems bolted to a weapons platform, like some sort of macaroni craft project is over. It is all about the integration. A lot of the time that pick your own adventure was to stop small batches being orphaned with gold plated things from the same country of origin as the platform, but then were never adopted by the host country or others. In Mogami's case, that doesn't matter, there are going to be ~24 upgraded Mogami's and already 12 existing Mogami's. That is already a mega huge fleet. Its not that those systems can't be changed out, its just the integration to get back to the manpower side costs more, takes longer etc. But if Japan ever became obnoxious, Australia would have the same problem and NZ could jump on what ever AU is doing.
CAMM Is a sticking point. I can see the issue with NZ having spent that money on that weapon system, being reluctant to change. There is nothing wrong with CAMM. But if you bought mogami I would sell them with the ship or on the open market. I think they would fetch a fair price, 200 is a decent stock and stockpiles are low.
The modularity NZ is looking for is buying the Mogami hulls but no weapons. No NSM, no ESSM, no SM-6, no TLAM, no seaRAM, no RIM. But if it allowed the ordering of 3 ships. Totally worth it.
Because of the budgetary pressure 3 ships would provide. Australia could stockpile those weapons locally, and make them available on a lease, or rent buy or in case of war. NZ can then, slowly acquire and fit weapons when required. For NZ case, it may wish to sail only with 16-32 ESSM peacetime load out, literally nothing else. That would be fine.
To fully arm these ships would cost a lot. ESSM is what $2m usd shelf price, So for 3 ships fully loaded. So for just loading the 3 ships that 384, missiles, $768m usd, say a billion for training, handling, storage etc. IF NZ wanted just one reload that then becomes $2 billion usd. RIM is $2m a missile too, so hundreds of millions there. NSM is about $2.5m usd off the shelf. 24 NSM $60m minimum. So full load out training storage etc hundred+ million usd. Training storage, maintenance etc would all add up too. Sm-6 is $5m usd a peice, so if you want to sprinkle each with 8 of those, hundreds of millions again.
I suspect that is what would give NZ planners and politicans pause. The platforms themselves are, cheap as chips, but arming them could cost billions. However, I would argue that NZ in going with Mogami has options and it doesn't have to fully load them out from day 1. Japan build the first Mogami's with no VLS then with only 16 vls. IMO it would be completely fine if NZ acquired the ships, no fancy munitions. I doubt NZ would ever need to fully max out the load. Japan could certainly build a Mogami with just 16 VLS if they wanted it so. Turn the free room into a nice gym or habituality improvement. Day spa, bikrum yoga centre, jacuzzi, sauna, a pie shop or a pub. If it helps retention and time at sea, I say yes, heck the soviets did this on their boomer subs.
Wonder if Japan would offer the legacy Mogami as a second hand sale, and if so, would NZ consider them? They have 16 cells, and an even smaller crew. That would allow Japan to move towards a larger more capable figate force, replacing the legacy with 3 more upgraded ships.
legacy Mogamis are not fit for high sea states, they would not fit NZs needs.
Mogami - 133m x 16m
‘features a fine, stealthy hull optimised primarily for regional and littoral operations.’
Upgraded Mogami - 142m x 17m
’engineered as a robust blue-water combatant built for high end endurance and open ocean seakerping across the indo-pacific.’
Question for you please.
I have seen some time back that Mogami has a high tensile hull, mainly for a lower radar section etc.
The same piece also indicated that any hull damage is far more likely to cause a total scrapping and replacement of the ship rather than repair. This of course fits what appears to be the general Japanese mindset of replacing with new rather than upgrades etc.
Does a Mogami high tensile hull mean no transits south to areas with ice?
Does NZ need to send frigates near and thru ice and specifically in warfare?
I have seen some time back that Mogami has a high tensile hull, mainly for a lower radar section etc.
The same piece also indicated that any hull damage is far more likely to cause a total scrapping and replacement of the ship rather than repair. This of course fits what appears to be the general Japanese mindset of replacing with new rather than upgrades etc.
Does a Mogami high tensile hull mean no transits south to areas with ice?
Does NZ need to send frigates near and thru ice and specifically in warfare?
The crew is 90 vs 92. You can have the ships built with fewer VLS. Searam is removable. TBH it maybe preferable for NZ to fit phalanx. Its possibly better for asymmetric threats and smaller drones that RIM can't lock on. Ie just put lots of metal in this area. The hassle of stocking and training around RIM IMO seems like a cost NZ may not be interested in. Even if you just make it a RWS with a 30mm. Or nothing. That is exactly the sort of thing a ship could come into port and have bolted on as soon as things look like heating up and embark the crew specific to that weapon system when it is needed (they can train and operate on AU ships). We talk about a combined force, and that is exactly the kind of fairly niche capability where NZ doesn't have to blow many millions on something that isn't a core capability, that in a time of combat, we could work it out between ourselves.
Some would argue searam is more capable, but for the money spend on that SM-6 could probably be acquired, and that is going to be a hundred times more useful and powerful than Searam in dealing with threats that can shoot at you.
I think this is overrated. Most ships aren't designed to be recommissioned after being hit. Even the ones that are, its mostly symbolic reasons than economics. How many ships have been scuttled due to fire recently, including some large very tough ships. As soon as the fire is hot enough to flake paint, and damage electricals, it starts to get very expensive. Modern ships (including Anzac, FFG, heck ships 4-5 generations before mogami) are made with aluminium superstructures etc. Aluminium isn't going to take a hit and a fire and keep going. The Turkish lost a entire ship (american WW2 destroyer see TCG Muavenet) from just a sea sparrow missile accidently hitting it. Let alone a 100kg or 500kg warhead.
Modern missiles and explosives are not going to give a ship a good time, you get the crew off and scuttle the ship. Russians, Americans, Norwegieans, NZ, that is pretty much exactly what has happened. NZ doesn't have the capabilities to dry dock any large frigate and spend 5 years and more than purchase price to recommission it. In war time, no one wants a frigate hogging space and in a open ended cost plus type repair situation.
This is like the discussions I had with my grandfather who only trusted riveted ships, not welded.
I suspect with Mogami and southern sea patrols, they are exactly the sort of questions NZ should seek answers too. But NZ has ships that can do those missions other than the very highest end surface combatant. Ideally it would be a OPV type ship that performs those deep near ice missions. If it sinks or is damaged, its a lot cheaper a top tier combatant.
I would point out that northern Japan is quite cold in winter, and experiences sea ice. More sea ice than NZ ever gets. I would say Mogami is would probably be one of the most capable cold climate ships NZ has ever assessed.
If NZ only goes for 2 frigates . I like see something a little more armed than current OPVs so don't go down same path when frigates getting updated or heavy maintenance only vessel had was one OPV with 25mm gun . I like the Danish OSK designed coastal Corvette our Pollies would never go with full armament but like something in between with air defence and larger main gun than
25mm .They are longer vessel which handle Southern oceans better than current vessels.
25mm .They are longer vessel which handle Southern oceans better than current vessels.